Been thinking about rules and stuff, as for some strange reason, it keeps coming up.
I've figured the following out, as a sort of working theory. If any of it works for you, great. if any of it doesn't, well, more to discuss, yes?
If you've got a lot of rules and a lot of expectations and a lot of things you must have other partners do, then by all means bring them up, and make them as explicit as you need to. Some people will get turned off by that and not be interested in you. That's okay -- if you need people to act a certain way, and these people don't want to... you don't need them.
If you don't want a lot of rules or expectations, then be explicit about that when you start in with someone, especially if they seem to be "ruly". Don't waffle -- tell them right up front. be explicit. And if they have a rule and you can't or won't do that in the long term -- say so. This might turn them off and send them away, but that's okay, because... you don't need them.
See, it's not complicated.
No matter who you are, LEARN YOURSELF. Know WHY you want what you want, and be able to explain it clearly and simply. And do so.
There are lots and lots and lots of people on this planet. More than you will ever meet. So, there's no need for you to compromise a required value, just so you can fuck someone, unless you are a deceptive asshole. And you might as well be upfront about it, because no matter WHAT you're into, you can find someone who is exactly complementary and you'll suit each other to a "t".
If someone can post on the internet that they want to kill and cook someone and they have to SIFT THROUGH APPLICANTS, then you can find a romantic partner that fits your needs like a glove, or near enough as to make no difference.
So, understand who you are, be willing to explain it clearly, and know what is and is not acceptable to you.
This is not complicated.
And anyone trying to tell you you aren't "true" poly or that you're doing it wrong, or that you HAVE to have this or that certain rule (or no rules) can yammer on all they want and it doesn't make one skinny pickle's difference -- because there ARE people out there who are a perfectly fine fit. People can ask questions, or they can rant or they can rave or whatever. And maybe something they say makes sense or maybe it doesn't. Only you can decide that for your own self.
Be yourself. Yourself might change over time, and that's okay, too, but be who you are right now. Understand why, and accept yourself.
Because if you've got that running well, then you'll turn away people who are turned away by it, and you'll attract people who are attracted by it.
And isn't that part of the point?
I've figured the following out, as a sort of working theory. If any of it works for you, great. if any of it doesn't, well, more to discuss, yes?
If you've got a lot of rules and a lot of expectations and a lot of things you must have other partners do, then by all means bring them up, and make them as explicit as you need to. Some people will get turned off by that and not be interested in you. That's okay -- if you need people to act a certain way, and these people don't want to... you don't need them.
If you don't want a lot of rules or expectations, then be explicit about that when you start in with someone, especially if they seem to be "ruly". Don't waffle -- tell them right up front. be explicit. And if they have a rule and you can't or won't do that in the long term -- say so. This might turn them off and send them away, but that's okay, because... you don't need them.
See, it's not complicated.
No matter who you are, LEARN YOURSELF. Know WHY you want what you want, and be able to explain it clearly and simply. And do so.
There are lots and lots and lots of people on this planet. More than you will ever meet. So, there's no need for you to compromise a required value, just so you can fuck someone, unless you are a deceptive asshole. And you might as well be upfront about it, because no matter WHAT you're into, you can find someone who is exactly complementary and you'll suit each other to a "t".
If someone can post on the internet that they want to kill and cook someone and they have to SIFT THROUGH APPLICANTS, then you can find a romantic partner that fits your needs like a glove, or near enough as to make no difference.
So, understand who you are, be willing to explain it clearly, and know what is and is not acceptable to you.
This is not complicated.
And anyone trying to tell you you aren't "true" poly or that you're doing it wrong, or that you HAVE to have this or that certain rule (or no rules) can yammer on all they want and it doesn't make one skinny pickle's difference -- because there ARE people out there who are a perfectly fine fit. People can ask questions, or they can rant or they can rave or whatever. And maybe something they say makes sense or maybe it doesn't. Only you can decide that for your own self.
Be yourself. Yourself might change over time, and that's okay, too, but be who you are right now. Understand why, and accept yourself.
Because if you've got that running well, then you'll turn away people who are turned away by it, and you'll attract people who are attracted by it.
And isn't that part of the point?
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 3:12 AM"No matter who you are, LEARN YOURSELF. Know WHY you want what you want, and be able to explain it clearly and simply. And do so. "
That is absolutely excellent in principle, but I believe you over estimate the "sapiens" part of our title. By the time everybody can do this one thing, and do it well, I believe our species will need a new name. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 7:38 PM"I believe you over estimate the "sapiens" part of our title."
Probably, but I'd rather overestimate than underestimate that one. 8)
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 9:01 AMi agree!! my hubby and i have rather detailed rules about poly sex.
here's my tip: if you lay out some rules and the person you are relaying them to either laughs, rolls eyes, or doesn't take it seriously, then RUN. if someone doesn't respect your relationship rules, no matter how uptight you have to be in terms of protecting yourself, then they do not respect YOU. nothing good ever comes of that.
i wish there were a separate planet for us. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 11:09 AMWell, there's a difference between respecting your rules and not wanting to follow them.
Ferinstance 'We only have sex with other people as a couple."
If that's what you want and it works for you, cool. But I'd decline the relationship because dating couples together as a unit ain't my thang.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 7:39 PM"i wish there were a separate planet for us."
If you ever watch a movie called From Beyond, you might realize as I realize that I'm glad there ISN'T a separate planet.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 1:06 PMhi,
ya know, it took me like 6 yrs into poly to realize polys are all different (thank goodness for tribe). not everyone views poly like i do.
so now, i like to ask a new lover interest what they want from relationships, and how do i fit in, or how do they fit into what i am into.
i call it "the same page talk".
sometimes we talk about it, and reach a place where we can still relate, but it has saved me from other people where i just did not want to pursue because we were not on the same page.
i am sure once i live with someone, there may be more to this rule thing that i am doing right now.
xo
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Mon, June 23, 2008 - 9:52 PMWell.... on knowing one's self.... complicated, no.... but lawd, based on my observation of self and the human race, ain't it the simple shit that's the hardest to learn at times. I read a quote somewhere, forgive my awkward wording, that goes like this: "Life consists of slowly and painfully learning things about yourself, that a casual observer could pick up in about a half an hour."
Dunno what I do want sometimes, but I sure know what I don't want. That's what I bring up. I have this speech: I Do Not Want To Find Out That A Partner Was Hiding (fill in the blank)Two Years After The Fact... and ya know, dang if it hasn't helped me end up with folks who share my attitude towards honesty, now thatcha mention it. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:50 AM"I have this speech: I Do Not Want To Find Out That A Partner Was Hiding (fill in the blank)Two Years After The Fact..."
Do you have regular Amnesty Days? 8) -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 11:38 AMYou know..... that's actually not a half bad idea.
"OK, if there's anything you fudged on today is your get out of jail free day! Fess up!" Otherwise if he fucks up and lies, even once, he would feel like he had to continue hiding it. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 12:01 PMBut, the issue with a get out of jail free day is you have to be willing to hear anything that might be confessed and not react in a negative way. If there are reprocussions to something someone tells you then it's not a free day. I'd bet not many people would be willing to hear, "I've been having unprotected sex with this chick from the bar, can't really remember her name" and then say all is forgiven.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 11:27 PM"But, the issue with a get out of jail free day is you have to be willing to hear anything that might be confessed and not react in a negative way."
Sez who?
The suggested rule is to not have something crop up later unspoken. If this rule doesn't include an amnesty day of sorts, then even the smallest infraction blows up: "I don't mind that you finger-fucked the Thanksgiving Day turkey -- but that you didn't TELL me is what means you have to cut off your own left leg."
In that case, the person who came up with the rule had best be either dating people who are perfect, or people who are time travelers. (I'm presuming they aren't just setting up an opportune mechanism for later dumping)
Or, they have a day when TELLING the crime is NOT a crime.
This does not necessarily mean the crime didn't happen, but that the "crime" of not telling about it isn't the issue.
See, there is one "real" crime, whatever the act is, and then there's the drama queen crime, the "crime" of not saying anything for x many months.
Amnesty day allows that "crime" to be forgiven in the interests of disclosure and correct data.
It's like this: If someone tells me they never want to see me again, I can poke out their eyes with a fork and I've arranged for EXACTLY what they wanted. I've followed the LETTER of the law, but it's just not the same thing as the spirit of the law.
Unless they really meant that.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:27 PMWhen I really do the speech, the fill in the blank part contains references to lacy underwear and canines in varying combinations... and that was a toned down version of the actual title.
No one has ever confessed as much to me, thus amnesty days have not been necessary ;)
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 11:28 PM"No one has ever confessed as much to me, thus amnesty days have not been necessary ;)"
Well, the other back door is that you never find out. That is an acceptable interpretation of the rule. ;)
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:35 PMthank you edward!!
Unless you tell me what you want, exactly as you want it, as a mature adult should, you don't give me the chance to make a mature adult choice! Give me that chance, dammit! -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 11:18 PM"Unless you tell me what you want, exactly as you want it, as a mature adult should, you don't give me the chance to make a mature adult choice!"
On the contrary, you are free to do exactly what you want when you want it.
That IS a choice.
If I don't tell you what I want... that IS a choice. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 10:11 AMI meant give me the change to make the choice to do what as you want me to do. I'm referring to when people don't ask for what they need, and then claim they didn't ask because they didn't think I would say "yes" or didn't want to impose upon me. You're right Edward, then I am free to make whatever choice I want. I just just don't like when people get testy just because I didn't make the choice they wanted me to make, even though they didn't tell me that they wanted me to make it.
Phew! -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 11:47 AM"I just just don't like when people get testy just because I didn't make the choice they wanted me to make, even though they didn't tell me that they wanted me to make it."
Well, yeah, no one likes that, but fortunately, it's only as much of your problem as you're willing to accept.
It's a big world and if someone wants to be all drama-queeny about stuff, they'd best have solid gold genitalia, because one can always find someone who IS compatible. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 3:20 PM"Amnesty day allows that "crime" to be forgiven in the interests of disclosure and correct data."
I think this was my point. ;o)
The rest of your post only sounds like partial amnesty, maybe I read it wrong...tell all now and I'll forgive the act of not telling but I'm gonna still react to the action itself...doesn't seem like the definition of amnesty, but like defining polyamory we all have our own definitions of what things mean. Although, that lends itself to bad communication. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 4:33 PMWell, ya know, while i can see promising not to throw a fit at someone NOT disclosing, why in hell would one ever say, "I'll forgive absolutely anything you say you did in X time frame?"
We all have our lines -- things we're just never, ever going to be cool with. Why try to force yourself to be when you;re not? Why commit to a pig in a poke?
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 8:16 PMExactly Noel...that's why I don't think that anyone can truly have an amnesty or get out of jail free day. It will always be limited on the previously agreed upon conditions...or some subset of those conditions.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 9:42 PM"The rest of your post only sounds like partial amnesty, maybe I read it wrong..."
I wrote amnesty -- you wrote get-out-of-jail-free. ;)
I think it makes perfectly good sense to be human and to offer amnesty with as open a mind as possible -- particularly when time-travel crimes are involved.
Like I pointed out, there are two crimes in such a thing: the actual act and the time-travel offense.
The act might have consequences. It's not as if you have to lie down like a puppy and be beaten. I mean, if a partner says "well, I've just started smoking crack" you can certainly say "Well, how about that. Sorry, can't date you anymore." You don't have to get mad or anything, and there's no reason you have to, um, just take it.
But as far as the time-travel offense, the nature of it is such that there's absolutely no actual problem that can't be forgiven by an act of will. If someone says "I forgot to tell you and then the time passed beyond which you considered it a firing offense and the only other path to not getting into trouble was to NOT tell you," then it is entirely 100% within your power to say "Oh, yeah, well, that makes sense. Forget about it" because there's no real repercussion with the time-travel offense. It's entirely fabricated.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 10:15 AMyep. And as of three years ago, I've never had to deal with the problem 'cause my fiance rules. WOOT. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 2:58 PM"And as of three years ago, I've never had to deal with the problem 'cause my fiance rules."
Feels good, huh?
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 6:15 PMYou can make A choice, but you won't be making the choice you think you are. If a partner fails to inform me of their wants and needs then I will make choices that will have consequences I was unaware of, and while that's unavoidable in life as a general rule it CAN be avoided when it comes to known relationship needs. So, a partner who does not tell me what they need from a relationship limits my ability to accurately choose my actions (because I do choose based on consequences the vast majority of the time) -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Wed, June 25, 2008 - 9:46 PM"You can make A choice, but you won't be making the choice you think you are."
That's how life is anyway.
Unless there's a Prophecy Degree involved.
"So, a partner who does not tell me what they need from a relationship limits my ability to accurately choose my actions (because I do choose based on consequences the vast majority of the time)"
You bet they do, and that's their lookout.
If you asked me if I had food allergies and I didn't tell you and you fed me weasel, which made me horribly sick, I suppose I COULD yell and scream at you, but (shrug) it's my own damn fault, and you'd probably be in the right to dump my drama queen uncommunicative ass. I'd certainly deserve it, at that point, and I'd best be learning my lesson.
Now, if you wanted to, you could view this as some sort of "loss" to you, but really, if they ain't talkin', you can't squeeze data out of them. If data's important, I'd recommend against dating people who don't seem to be on the same page.
There are people with whom you probably can find a good communicative rapport. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 1:29 PMIt is true that you can never know all the consequences of your actions, but that's no reason to go in any blinder than necessary. Some good logic and people-sense will get a body a lot further than prophecy, at least it will if the Greek myths are any indication!
And, yes, it's their lookout, but I'm explaining why it's something I want as well. You can throw your hands in the air and abnegate responsibility, sure, but I'm interested in making relationships work. Nobody joins the game knowing how much information I want (some folks seem to prefer guessing... I suppose they need more excitement in their life?) and the above was an explanation of why and how a partner failing to inform me of their needs steals my ability to make informed choices. I'm not so much looking for the dating advice. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Thu, June 26, 2008 - 2:57 PM"It is true that you can never know all the consequences of your actions, but that's no reason to go in any blinder than necessary."
Oh, I don't think anyone was advising "going in blind." Especially with volatile partners who wuold pop and run at an ordinary mistake.
"And, yes, it's their lookout, but I'm explaining why it's something I want as well."
Well, sure, it's great to have more information. Totally agree.
"You can throw your hands in the air and abnegate responsibility..."
Whoopsie -- if you think that's what I'm saying, then that explains your confusion. Not what I'm sayin' at all.
"...but I'm interested in making relationships work. "
Dammit - another revolutionary! Well, that freakish goal is sure to wither in the unrelenting heat of all who oppose it. ;)
"the above was an explanation of why and how a partner failing to inform me of their needs steals my ability to make informed choices."
Sure, but "steals" is such a loaded word, describing a deliberate act of malevolence. Do you agree it has those connotations? You've got a couple other words that are a bit loaded there, such as "failed" (as if they have done something wrong?) and "informed". (normally, I've heard "informed choice" as a phrase to describe health or safety issues).
But really, that's all academic.
It's not complicated -- if you want information, ask. If they tell you, great. If they don't, then you only have your information to make whatever decision you needed to make (which includes what they are willing or able to answer). I see no reason to overly dramatize it by saying they've "failed" at something and you can't make an "informed" choice and that they've "stolen" something from you.
However, in the spirit of the basenote -- if you want to bring those sorts of words in to a discussion with someone, go right ahead. If they get turned off by that language, then you aren't gonna make good partners. If they nod solemnly and say "yeah, baby, I hear you, god do I ever!" then y'all might hit it off right.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Tue, June 24, 2008 - 6:38 PMCan I please repost this on my blog (with due credit)? I really want other people to read this!
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 4:08 AMRules are for oneself. In loving unconditionally one controls oneself by rules and not the other (or others). -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 7:18 AM"Rules are for oneself."
Oh yeah.
There's nine worlds of difference between people who say "these are my rules I apply to myself" and "these are my rules that apply to you."
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 7:38 AMI like to keep my "rules" for the other person short and simple:
Don't stick your dick in crazy or stupid.
There is no excuse for endangering another person.
Going to be late or plans change? Call me.
I can't give you what you want if you don't know how to ask for it.
Rules for myself:
You can't fix anyone but yourself.
Contribute something.
If plans change or I'm going to be late, call ahead.
Don't ask unless you can take No for an answer.
There is no excuse for endangering another person.
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 8:15 AMVerily there are. Rule oneself and there is not much need for rules applying to others. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Fri, June 27, 2008 - 1:24 PM"Rule oneself and there is not much need for rules applying to others."
There are some who believe that and practice it. And there are some who can't and don't.
As long as everyone's on the up-and-up, then in the billions of humans riding around this ball, they will eventually find each other. And for those not subscribing to whatever one is selling, there's nothing like advertising to turn away potential future disappointments!
It CAN'T be any harder than a murderer/cannibal finding victims. 8)
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 10:35 AM"then you can find a romantic partner that fits your needs like a glove, or near enough as to make no difference. "
So we had a wee chat about this last night. I thought Edward's post was an interesting point that reinforces the need for self-knowledge and (as far as is reasonable) full-disclosure. However she brought up a good point:
"So that's great, you find the partner that fits your needs. So what happens when your (or their) needs change? Do you just walk away and find another? This whole discussion sounds like a rather consumerist view of relationship - use them as long as they do it for you and dump them when they no longer do the trick."
I have to say she's got a point. What about learning to negotiate, compromise and (dare I say it) sometimes actually do something you don't like doing because you love someone?
It's just that it feels a bit self-centred: 'this is me - take it or leave it'.... Rules or no rules... -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sat, June 28, 2008 - 6:59 PM"I have to say she's got a point. What about learning to negotiate, compromise and (dare I say it) sometimes actually do something you don't like doing because you love someone? "
It depends on the thing I don't like. I'll see a romantic comedy with a partner, even though I detest the genre.
I changed my children's diapers, and that's not much fun.
But when the things I don't like are on the order of "Be monogamous" "Endure being deprived of sleep regularly because the best time for me to talk is 3AM" or "Only have friends and activities I approve of and consent to" then it becomes another matter.
Sure, sure, needs change. So do relationships. Things change. Perhaps being together forever-n-ever, amen, isn't an ideal situation. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 6:57 AM"It depends on the thing I don't like"
So it sounds like having agreements about what areas up for discussion and what aren't is a good idea.
"Perhaps being together forever-n-ever, amen, isn't an ideal situation."
Which I guess is the opposite end of the spectrum from the disposable relationship :-)
The world doesn't have to be totally Yin or totally Yang - I just wanting to see if there was a middle ground in all this talk about rules. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 7:36 AMImportant point.
I think each person here has several inalienable rights. The right of self preservation. The right of No. The right of uh..thats about all the unalienable rights that come to mind. I guess everything else is up to discussion.
Anything involving nature, life, humanness, can be viewed as a dance between Yin and Yang. Wear those glasses and relationships become a dance. Much more fun. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 9:13 AMi find as i get more involved with someone, even just friends, we each have boundaries that might shift and change, resurface or whatever, and def being able to communicate that to the other, and the other honoring that boundary, is becoming important to me.
xo
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 9:50 AMLook even if I'm willing to walk away if it doesn't work out, that doesn't make PEOPLE disposable.
In fact, I find that the ones who think you have to be together forever once you get together to be the WORST for commodifying humans. -
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 10:45 AM"Look even if I'm willing to walk away if it doesn't work out, that doesn't make PEOPLE disposable. "
I said "disposable relationship" NOT "disposable people"!
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Re: Rules and all that other stuff
Sun, June 29, 2008 - 11:42 AMIt amuses me that Noel's extremely consistent rule is "Must sleep, not talk at 3AM." Wherever I've seen rules, this has come up, and it's endearing in the "I only know you as pixels on tribe" type of way.
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