I have a conundrum. I'm in a Live-In MFM - V. the two M's aren't involved with each other.
The only way we can work out time is pretty much by having a set schedule for whose bed she sleeps in each night. He gets off work earlier than I do, so he tends to get extra time with her no matter what anyway.
For the longest time I was under the impression that the schedule also referred to who she was actually fucking that day. My bubble was sadly burst a while ago, and I made a big deal out of it. It's been an ongoing argument for a number of months.
My perspective is this. It's a respect thing. I do not have sex with her on 'his days' because I respect that those are in fact 'his days'. To me, having sex with her on a day that is supposed to be dedicated to him and their relationship is just wrong and disrespectful and perhaps a bit spiteful.
Their perspective is a time factor (for one). Since he gets off earlier than me, they try to have sex when I'm not there. She also claims this is just me being manipulative and trying to control who-with and when she has sex.
But when it's 'his day' I tend to not be around that much anyway. And even on 'my days' by the time I get home, they're on the couch hanging out, and I still have to wait till near past midnight when he decides to go to bed, then to sleep, so her and I can 'sneak off' to try to have sex as quietly as possible without waking him up. Or they've been fucking (like every day apparently) and she's either sore or not in the mood for later that night.
Do you think I'm in the wrong? Is it unrealistic to think that a little 'Schedule Fidelity' is just a matter of respect?
How do other poly groups, specifically Vs, deal with the issue of time and sex?
The only way we can work out time is pretty much by having a set schedule for whose bed she sleeps in each night. He gets off work earlier than I do, so he tends to get extra time with her no matter what anyway.
For the longest time I was under the impression that the schedule also referred to who she was actually fucking that day. My bubble was sadly burst a while ago, and I made a big deal out of it. It's been an ongoing argument for a number of months.
My perspective is this. It's a respect thing. I do not have sex with her on 'his days' because I respect that those are in fact 'his days'. To me, having sex with her on a day that is supposed to be dedicated to him and their relationship is just wrong and disrespectful and perhaps a bit spiteful.
Their perspective is a time factor (for one). Since he gets off earlier than me, they try to have sex when I'm not there. She also claims this is just me being manipulative and trying to control who-with and when she has sex.
But when it's 'his day' I tend to not be around that much anyway. And even on 'my days' by the time I get home, they're on the couch hanging out, and I still have to wait till near past midnight when he decides to go to bed, then to sleep, so her and I can 'sneak off' to try to have sex as quietly as possible without waking him up. Or they've been fucking (like every day apparently) and she's either sore or not in the mood for later that night.
Do you think I'm in the wrong? Is it unrealistic to think that a little 'Schedule Fidelity' is just a matter of respect?
How do other poly groups, specifically Vs, deal with the issue of time and sex?
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 1:18 AMSorry, I have to disagree with you. Unless you explicitly negotiated and communicated that as a part of the "timesharing" agreement, I don't see why you would be entitled to expect that...
When I lived in an MFM V (a V because the other guy was straight) we all three slept in the same (queen sized!) bed, one of us on either side of her. We didn't do any kind of time sharing, but we did have a rule that anyone who wanted to sleep was entitled to kick non-sleepy people out of bed.
But ultimately the rules of your relationship are whatever the three of you agree on. Not what you assume. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:25 PMI can understand I shouldn't be surprised since I didn't broker the rules that way, but honestly I didn't think that kind of thing should have had to be brought up. It seemed like a no brainer matter of simple and basic respect. It didn't occur to me that they would even think that way.
I guess I'm just too chivalrous for my own good. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:29 PMDon't pat yourself on the back for not making your needs known.
"You should have *foo*" is an absolute relationship killer.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 12:06 PMThat's called "assuming." And we all know what that does to U and ME. :)
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 12:52 PM"honestly I didn't think that kind of thing should have had to be brought up."
It does. Do so.
"It seemed like a no brainer matter of simple and basic respect."
It's possible you have partners with a Degree in Mind-Reading, in which case, you can safely assume they are reading your mind. Otherwise, you may find that the phrase "no-brainer" has more than one meaning -- and appropriately so.
"I guess I'm just too chivalrous for my own good."
Like the poster in the other thread that had Boy Trouble and claimed she was "too honest"? Nah. I doubt it.
I'd say run with what your partner has ACTUALLY SAID TO YOU, instead of assuming they're not sufficiently chivalrous as to not spoil the rich pussy goodness when it's your turn to churn the butter.
You don't HAVE to stop blaming your partners for being unable to read your mind or unwilling to subscribe to your assumptions...
...but until you do, you're just going to feel less and less happy.
And seriously -- that bit about how she's "spoiled" when she has sex with someone else? That's all you, baby, and that might be needing a good looking into.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 4:09 AMWell, when I lived in a quad, we had a SLEEP schedule. While because we had kids yeah, effectively we tended to have sex with the partner we were sleeping with that night, it had been made explicitly clear that it was not a SEX schedule.
This is not about respect, nor is it personal. It sounds to me like you'd enjoy more sex and more.... quality time where things are relaxed. It's okay to ask for that.
Why can't you snuggle up to her on the other side of the sofa? Just wondering... -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 8:34 AMIt sounds like you all need to improve your skills in asking for what you want ,when you want it, or even better, in advance! I'm the F in our little MFM triad, and no, my guys don't relate on that level either. We spend a lot of time together being generally social and snuggling, and will be moving into our new home later this summer.
For us, what is working the best is to set things up ahead of time, including who is sleeping where, if we're co-sleeping, and who needs alone time with me. Anyone can ask for it, if they have a special need (tough day, super libidinous, etc), but we generally try to stick with what's been agreed on ahead. Being a fiend in the sack, I don't have issues accepting more attention that way, as long as it isn't late, as I LOVE my sleep, so the part about having someone turned down for sex isn't happening here. The guideline about anyone who wants the bed for sleeping gets it, that's a good one! Fortunately, we have other spaces for sex.
One of the keys is to have everyone working on accepting the needs of others as not being exclusionary, or taking it personally. That might look like: "Hey R! I'm going to need some alone time with M this evening when the kids are in bed." This gives R a chance to find a project or something to do while we're otherwise occupied. Fortunately, both of my guys are pretty self-sufficient and have lots to do. I try to do the same when M is out with his secondary or tertiary partners. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:21 PM*congrats on the house, by the way!!*
It would be nice if we could switch days or be cool with stealing her attention or lust when we needed, but it's not quite that easy to do in our household, not with the limited time we spend together anyway. Besides, he doesn't do anything outside of work and spend time with her (I'm the only one with a real social life outside the house) unless she tells him to get out of the house for a couple hours cause he's been overly needy.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:12 PMbecause I'm the balance. He tends to be a bit needy and greedy, and is usually draped over her in one way or another, and I don't want to do the same thing and smother her so much. Yes, i suppose I do sound like the martyr for not speaking up, but when I do speak up things don't tend to change for more than a couple of days, and I hate being the constant squeaky wheel.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:33 PMHmmm, for me the problem wouldn't be that she IS having sex with the other partner earlier that day but that because of that she is not willing to have sex with you later that day. I, too, would get cranky if my partner spent "my" days curled up on the sofa with the other partner. I would feel very neglected.
It is, however, true that this needs to be communicated. Tell her not just that you are upset about her sleeping with him on your day, but explain why in detail. Let her know where you are coming from emotionally and suggest an agreement that both of you can live with. If she thinks that you asking for quality time with just her is manipulative then there may be other problems that need to be addressed. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 2:56 PMAgreed with Myriad, it might a much deeper issue.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:14 PM"Tell her not just that you are upset about her sleeping with him on your day, but explain why in detail."
I have, they disagreed. I was outvoted. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 12:09 PMA triad should NEVER be run as a majority-vote democracy. That kind of system may work for a country of millions, but for a family of three you end up with hurt feelings being the bigger factor. Consensus is the only system that can work. (Disclaimer: All of the above is my opinion, but it's a very strong opinion.) -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 5:29 AMThat is the greatest danger of any triad: that two can pair up against one and that one ends up not getting his/her needs met. Or that two can couple up and neglect the third partner. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 11:42 AM"That is the greatest danger of any triad: that two can pair up against one and that one ends up not getting his/her needs met. Or that two can couple up and neglect the third partner."
Indeed (speaks the voice of experience).
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 10, 2008 - 2:44 PM"That is the greatest danger of any triad: that two can pair up against one and that one ends up not getting his/her needs met. Or that two can couple up and neglect the third partner."
Werd!
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 7:25 PMI too am concerned that there is a deeper issue at work here. Poly is all about communicating and it sounds as if you are not all on the same page right now. My vote would be for a conversation between the three of you at a time when you are all feeling open and relaxed. That is, a time when no one has to be anywhere and no one is particularly stressed out with life in general. My hope for you is that once you all get everything out there, you will find a natural solution that will make for a happy situation for all of you. I don't think it's necessarily about any one solution being right or wrong. I think the only question is - what will work the best for all of you.
I wish you all the best!
Regards,
Jenny Block
Author of "Open: Love, Sex, and Life in an Open Marriage"
www.jennyonthepage.com
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 7, 2008 - 9:56 PMIn general:
- Assume nothing. No one else knows what things look like from your viewpoint, and certainly don't know your feelings or interpretation unless you share them.
- Know yourself. If you want something or know you are going to want something, state exactly what it is you need and why.
- Own your part in the relationship. If you are not happy with the relationship, figure out what you would need to be happy. If the other parties are unable or unwilling to work with your needs, that might not be the right relationship for you.
For us, I know with what frequency I will want "personal attention" and tell her ahead of time to expect to be dragged off to the bedroom. I don't really care what she does with him after I go to work, as long as my needs are met when I'm there.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 8:20 PM"For the longest time I was under the impression that the schedule also referred to who she was actually fucking that day."
You agreed to a day-long exclusive date-time?
"My perspective is this. It's a respect thing. I do not have sex with her on 'his days' because I respect that those are in fact 'his days'. To me, having sex with her on a day that is supposed to be dedicated to him and their relationship is just wrong and disrespectful and perhaps a bit spiteful. "
Well, you certainly can choose to not have sex with your girlfriend for any reason whatsoever. However, note that if the three of you did not explicitly make such an agreement, your decision is based entirely on a fantasy in your own head. In other words, it has as much bearing on reality as if you might have said "I don't have sex with her on Thursdays because the Shih Tzu commanded it."
That aside, you might want to take a hard look at the part of your brain that associates having sex with your girlfriend as somehow wrong or disrespectful or spiteful. I'm not gonna SAY that sounds like a fucked up bit of cause-and-effect, but, um, well, just imagine a long, blank look. Sex is good, right? Love is good, right? Pleasure is good, right? What the fuck does "spite" have to do with any of that?!
"She also claims this is just me being manipulative and trying to control who-with and when she has sex."
Well, she's right. You ARE. You're suggesting that she not have sex with anyone else on a day you have a date with her -- even if you're not home (um, does it "spoil" her or something?). And you're doing so in a passive-aggressive way by restricting YOURSELF from having sex with her on other people's dates, and then suggesting you deserve the same treatment.
That would be the smell of emotional blackmail. She's nailed you, guy, and it's time to suck it up and admit it and DO THINGS DIFFERENTLY.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Thu, May 8, 2008 - 8:30 PMAs far as not actually getting sex when you want it, that is a completely different issue. It doesn't matter WHY, just focus on asking for what you WANT.
Directly.
If it's a small house, then go out on a date somewhere. Arrange for that private time.
If you step up and ask for something that you want and someone is not willing or able to give it to you, then that person just may not be the right person for you.
Note carefully what you are asking for, too. Be sure to ask for WHAT YOU WANT -- not what you think will get you what you want. Here's an example: If you want more sex, ask for more sex. Simple. If you want more sex and you ask someone to stop working or stop playing with their kid or stop doing something else that you THINK is taking all their time up, all that's gonna do is piss them off.
This is not rocket science. 8)
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 3:53 AM"This is not rocket science. "
Given how the rocket scientists of my acquaintance conduct their relationships, I can only conclude that relationships are harder!
*tries very very hard to feel ashamed of herself for that...* -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 9:32 AMEdward said what I was going to say.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Mon, May 12, 2008 - 10:11 PM"Given how the rocket scientists of my acquaintance conduct their relationships, I can only conclude that relationships are harder!"
Just because people don't do something doesn't mean it's hard to do.
It's easy to step off a tall building and fall many floors to sweet asphalt oblivion, but yet most of us don't. It's still easy, though. ;)
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 9, 2008 - 1:55 PMI agree with those who said, in one way or another, that you have been working on some unshared "rules" and self defeating illogic.
AND...
I also want to acknowledge that you are hurting and frustrated, and I think most of us have felt the kind of pain you are feeling at one point or another. Namaste, brother.
You're needs are important. Understand them yourself, make them known, and find a way to have them fulfilled...if not in your current relationship's, with your future ones. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Wed, May 14, 2008 - 9:51 PMAs someone who's been in a V- before, I'd ask, where is HER time?
If I was her I'd have a minimum time window "dates" pre-set with both of you,
and then my time/flex time.....
I've had partners who were concerned about how long it's been between intimacy with partners.
Sometimes bathing is a really solid agreement, or say.....two hours, but in my experience
agreements that are about limiting other's sexuality & personal choice will only bite you in the ass. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Thu, May 15, 2008 - 9:58 PMWell, the bathing issue has come up mostly because the other guy has a very strong personal scent. And his smell is known to permeate her skin, and it's a bit offputting...
And she doesn't take any flex time. She doesn't really take any time to herself, none scheduled anyway. She does use my time in a way as her personal time mostly because she knows I understand personal space and am less greedy than he is. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 9:44 AM"She does use my time in a way as her personal time mostly because she knows I understand personal space and am less greedy than he is."
That's cool if you're comfortable/happy being the martyr. If not, you might consider checking out Nonviolent Communication by Marshall Rosenberg. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 10:02 AMI'm glad you answered this one. I couldn't think of an appropriately kind way to phrase it.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 1:21 AM"She does use my time in a way as her personal time mostly because she knows I understand personal space and am less greedy than he is."
Well, you're a pushover, so she pushes you over.
But if it helps, consider this: Apparently, the other fella doesn't understand personal space and is greedy, and this is how he's getting the time and attention he wants from the relationship.
So, now you know what it will take to get the time and attention you want in a relatoinship with these people.
You know the local dialect, and you can see that it's effective. Are you going to learn to speak it, or write poems about the tragedy of being misunderstood?
This is one of those "cake or death" type questions.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 11:20 AMFrankly my friend if you like the Lady just make a few changes. In yourself. Think opportunity to try to work a little magic. If you have taken a yoga class let the ritual movements reenter your life.
Be generous in thought and deed.
Think about loving without conditions as we old hippy's used to do. We shared everything and any sort of hoarding didn't work. Of course when you do 100 hits of acid in three months one doesn't know which shit is his or hers, or who or what belongs to who. Which helps.
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Fri, May 16, 2008 - 11:22 AMWell, Bacchus, you've probably noticed that there are lots of people here who are not afraid to call others on their bullshit.
You do indeed have a conundrum, but I'm not at all sure it's about sex or even schedules.
I'm the F in a MFM V, and the ONLY reason my relationships work is because each man totally supports me in the other relationship. Each man knows and sees what the other man gives me, how he makes me happy, and treats me well. Each man has his own room and I go back and forth, yes, on a schedule, but we are flexible within that according to, (I hate to admit it) my needs, mostly. Or my guaging of each man's or each relationship's needs. Some days it feels like a pretty heavy burden, acutally, where I can actually wish I could split myself in half. But I digress....
Throughout this thread I have heard you say nothing good about your co-partner (that is, the other guy). He smells funny, he's needy, he takes up her time, they gang up on you... is there ANY reason why, beyond mere tolerance of him, you are even in this relationship?
If you can't think of anything, it's time to move on. Competing with him to get your needs met will only end up driving you deeper into the hole you are already in. Using language like "stealing" and "sneaking" speaks to a lack of acceptance of the facts of this relationship. I'm not the one that has to listen to me make love across the hall, and I appreciate that for some that may be a HUGE hurdle to get over, but truly, acceptance of "them" as an entity requires that you recognize that they have sex and allow for it, not compete for it or sneak around it. That has to go both ways, and I agree totally with what others say here, that being "outvoted" or ganged up on is hugely damaging. I feel for you in that regard.
I once read a poly article which said that the two determinants of a lasting relationship are (1) holding in sight the value of staying together and (2) how you treat each other. Even if you and your copartner are not sexually involved, he is still part of this picture for you.
You have choices. Use them. Love and respect yourself first. You deserve better than martyrdom. If you can't see the good here, go find good elsewhere. Peace. -
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Re: Schedule Fidelity - question and guidance
Sat, May 17, 2008 - 11:59 AMGoddess Katie,
The world is lucky to have you in it,
the polyamory community is lucky to have you be a representation of the relationship style,
and Bacchus is lucky to have your words to ponder.
Thanks!
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