Objectification?

topic posted Sun, June 28, 2009 - 7:13 PM by  lori
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I am posting this because I am really confused about this subject so I hope no one will feel too defensive about it. I would really like to gain some clarity here. Since I *don't* have clarity, my question probably won't make sense (yes, I'm that confused).

I recently ran into a guy who wanted three female partners. And it left me feeling squicky, much like the feeling I get when I run into couples who want a polyfi triad. It's not that I think there's anything with wanting what you want, or that's it's immoral or anything, that's what confuses me, it leaves me feeling like a *thing*, a sort of living sex toy, and I'm not really sure why that is or what's going on under the surface. Has anyone else figured this out, can you put some words on it so my brain can wrap itself around it?

Not everyone I run into makes me feel this way, it's those who seem more concerned with their configuration of partners than they are with the actual human beings involved.
posted by:
lori
California
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  • Re: Objectification?

    Mon, June 29, 2009 - 12:08 AM
    Okay, so there are probably a couple of parts to the dynamic here... a bunch of my poly & dating friends were talking about how many people they tend to regularly date at a time and the majority of the answers were between 2 and 4. People who were married or living together tended to have the lower numbers mainly (I think) because LTRs take more time & energy. In my ideal world, I would be dating 4 guys at once. It's not like I met somebody, was attracted to him, then stamped a big #3 on his forehead (LOL). To me it *is* all about the guys though... the relationships I have with each of my guys is unique. I recently stopped seeing one guy because I just didn't feel like things were going anywhere so now I'm down to 2 guys. I'm not sad about that or actively seeking out other people to date. It's not like any random guys would fit into what I want/need.... but if you asked me how many guys I'd like to date I'd still say 4 ;)

    Does that help at all?
  • Re: Objectification?

    Mon, June 29, 2009 - 1:28 AM
    "...it's those who seem more concerned with their configuration of partners than they are with the actual human beings involved. "

    That would be my guess.

    Would it feel as peculiar if the person said "I think my ideal configuration would be to be dating two Scorpios and an Aquarius"?
  • Re: Objectification?

    Mon, June 29, 2009 - 1:59 AM
    Well, it's one thing to have tastes and things one fantasizes about. It depends on how the person approaches it. I wouldn't much like to be someone completing a set, but haven't really any object to a partner having multiple partners. It's a subtle thing.
    • Re: Objectification?

      Mon, June 29, 2009 - 8:21 AM

      Is it really that subtle?

      I think there's a big difference between being in a relationship because they are into you vs. being sought after as a checkmark that completes someone's scorecard. If someone is just out looking to fulfill that special fantasy, how likely are they to really be looking to form a relationship with you and understand you well? I don't have a problem with my partner having multiple partners either as long as she's forming good relationships and not treating people like trophies, or being treated like one herself.
      • Re: Objectification?

        Mon, June 29, 2009 - 8:54 AM
        Yeah, but how do you tell the difference? And how do you explain it to the person who's *looking* to score? Especially, if they are not aware of it themselves? I mean I'm definitely trusting my gut on it, but I do find it hard to put in words.
        • Re: Objectification?

          Mon, June 29, 2009 - 5:23 PM
          Why would you need to explain it the person who's looking to score?

          I don't know how you tell the difference. I'd guess that time would tell -- what's the person's behaviour towards you really like? Are they building a relationship with you or are they just collecting?

          I see what you mean about them not being aware of it themselves, and I think I see what you mean about it being subtle. They may believe they'll find fulfillment because they have 3 girlfriends or a hot bi babe. And they'll appear sincere in meeting you and getting to know you better but you're still a tick mark on the score card.

          In my own personal experience dealing with someone like this I've seen what I might call a sense of urgency. They're so focused on the prize that they forget the person.

          And, yeah, your gut feel is probably the most important way to tell the difference.
          • Re: Objectification?

            Mon, June 29, 2009 - 5:56 PM
            "In my own personal experience dealing with someone like this I've seen what I might call a sense of urgency. They're so focused on the prize that they forget the person. "

            Yes, that nails it! Thanks for that, and it's not like they are intentionally being unkind, but I just haven't know how to respond to it. I meant they are excited but not about me really, which is too bad because they are missing something there. ;-)
            • Re: Objectification?

              Mon, June 29, 2009 - 6:16 PM
              They are missing something. Maybe by responding honestly, you can help them not to miss it next time ;)

              I think one of the reasons that people need artificially constructed relationships is in the vain attempt to control things so they won't get insecure. When folks come on to me with a very set idea about the kind of thing they want, and sometimes even launch into a set of do's and don't's before even asking if I'm interested, I run away. One time, I literally ran away...heh...not that I'm proud of that, but it was funny.

              Honesty is compassion. Just tell people the truth.
              • Re: Objectification?

                Mon, June 29, 2009 - 6:27 PM
                "They are missing something. Maybe by responding honestly, you can help them not to miss it next time ;) "

                Yes, I would like to be able to do that. I was hoping to get some clarity here so I could even know how to respond, how I'm feeling, without coming across as if I'm putting them down, or something. What would you say to someone?
            • Re: Objectification?

              Mon, June 29, 2009 - 8:33 PM
              "and it's not like they are intentionally being unkind".

              You are absolutely right. They really aren't doing it to be unkind. They really wouldn't be aware that they are objectifying you. They just don't know any better (which I guess is a value judgment on my part...)

              Unfortunately, I don't have any bright ideas on how to respond to it. Like so many other issues, this isn't about poly -- it is a pretty normal situation to have to let someone down gently, isn't it? Are there any differences with this situation?
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    Re: Objectification?

    Mon, June 29, 2009 - 8:19 AM
    objectification may be associated with numbers, but it is not causal.

    I know of many women and men, who want many children in their lives, and do so, with great love for each one.
  • Re: Objectification?

    Mon, June 29, 2009 - 8:59 AM
    If you were monogamous, would someone looking for "the one" produce the same squicked feeling? It makes sense to me that some people have an ideal relationship structure they're looking for (again, see monogamous marriage...). I understand the distaste, and it may often be triggered by a real lack of consideration from the people who are looking, but I can see considerate people having the same ideal desired relationship structure and being, well, more considerate about it.
    • Re: Objectification?

      Mon, June 29, 2009 - 9:41 AM
      Well, it might be like a monogamous person looking for a rich guy, or a super model, something like that? Where you wonder if it's the person they care about or the image?
      • Re: Objectification?

        Mon, June 29, 2009 - 10:18 AM
        Yep--I see that aspect. However, perhaps there are some people who are looking for two women (or whatever) who are looking for the same reasons that someone else might be looking for a single wife. What I'm saying is that I can see how some people are more into the image of a threesome (or, again, whatever) than human beings, but maybe some who want a particular relationship structure really are looking for people, not objects. As such, perhaps what is called for when meeting someone who expresses a desire for a particular relationship structure is alertness, not immediate rush to judgement. Yellow flags, not red?
        • Re: Objectification?

          Mon, June 29, 2009 - 11:38 AM
          Yeah, actually I'm pretty nonjudgmental, and don't have a built in negative on this. But the truth is I do often get some pretty uncomfortable vibes and I'm trying to understand that. I'm beginning to see that some of the people looking for particular configurations are similar to people who are seeking an *ideal* mate. I think we all go through that stage but at some point we move beyond that. Well, some of us do, maybe a lot of people don't and are constantly critical of their partner(s) for not measuring up to their ideal image of what relationship should be.

          Somewhere in the distant past I stopped caring about finding a *soul-mate* or an ideal and I started caring about the people who showed up in my life. It's part of why I'm poly, wanting the freedom to do that. But I think this is more about what the focus is--is it on the package (triad, quad, etc.) or on the people (this individual in front of me) and some people are really into the package. And that makes me uncomfortable.
          • Re: Objectification?

            Mon, June 29, 2009 - 12:54 PM
            Yep. That makes a lot of sense. I've not actually met many of these folks in person, though I see many personals ads that seem to suggest there's someone with unrealistic expectations behind them...
          • Re: Objectification?

            Mon, June 29, 2009 - 2:51 PM
            "...some people are really into the package. And that makes me uncomfortable."

            I'd recommend against responding to those ads, on that basis. Someone else WILL respond, who does not feel the same uncomfortableness/squick/whatever, and hey, it's great when folks who mutually share what they want can finally get together.

            I advocate ads that are clear about what they want -- helps me make better decisions. Also offers the occasional chuckle, too, but (shrug) I takes it where i can gets it.
    • Re: Objectification?

      Mon, June 29, 2009 - 11:22 AM
      >f you were monogamous, would someone looking for "the one" produce the same squicked feeling?<

      Yeah, actually, it would. It's good to know what a person's ideal is, but I still wanted to be taken at face value, and have my own desires be taken into account.
  • Re: Objectification?

    Mon, June 29, 2009 - 11:35 AM
    Hm... here's a thought.

    Consider the idea of Disjoint Desire.

    Disjoint Desire means that no matter what YOU are looking for, it is a big enough mismatch from what the other person is looking for that it seems odd or even alien.

    For example, if you want a young hardbody, some 50-year old WoW body-by-margarine guy would really squick you. If you want a crisp fresh mind, some hardbody comes along who can't even pass the ASVAB will turn you right off.

    The greater the disjoint, the stronger the sense that this is wrong or so forth.

    When I started thinking about this, and talking it over with another friend, we both realized that we KNEW people who were "they gotta be blonde and not so smart" were coupling happily up with people who were "as long as he loves all the effort I put into this look and doesn't talk much". So, we knew that people that we personally were kinda grossed out by were finding other people -- and that was okay.

    Besides, it doesn't quite feel right to try to imagine some universal frame of reference for what is right or wrong in desire. If there's no universal frame of reference, then it must be relative and extremely subjective.

    Thus Disjoint Desire can explain it without establishing a "right" or "wrong."
    • Re: Objectification?

      Mon, June 29, 2009 - 11:40 AM
      Just curious how right and wrong came into the discussion?
      • Re: Objectification?

        Mon, June 29, 2009 - 2:47 PM
        "Just curious how right and wrong came into the discussion?"

        I introduced them, simply as semantic handles. I tend to think of "squick" as a term one associates with something that is wrong on a lot of levels. It's certainly never used on anything unabashedly adorable.

        But without loss of meaning, you may replace "wrong" or "right" with "squick-causing" and "non-squick-causing" if that's more clear.

        The idea's still the same, the idea that as the Desire Disjoint grows, the more, well, "squicky" the interface feels.

        In some cases, our desires have been constructed out of certain things, such that the Desire Disjoint will definitely provoke a reaction.

        For example, say I was 8 and someone asked me who I would marry, and I chirped up "Somebody pretty!" and was chided with "What -- you don't think ugly people are worth loving, you retarded little bastard?" That would produce a LOT of shame and reinforce some idea in my head that when you are attracted to someone because they are pretty, then you are a "retarded little bastard" and your mom and dad despise you. Heck -- I might not even REMEMBER the incident, but shame doesn't give a rat's ass what we REMEMBER, it's always ready to tweak us. So, years later, I'm at a party, and a guy next to me looks over near the pool table and says "Wo -- she's one long tall drink of water" and immediately I feel shame -- and I can't even understand why. It squicks me. I flinch. Whatever.

        My point with the example, is that our Desires (against which we might feel squicked when there is disjoint) might not even have come from us -- they might have been programmed into us by something we saw or encountered, or something that happened to us, something we overheard in the locker room, something we overheard at mom's bridge party, on the radio, on a talk show on TV, wherever. Maybe not even as traumatic as my example, but (shrug) still powerful.
        • Re: Objectification?

          Mon, June 29, 2009 - 3:52 PM
          Yeah, bummer, I was trying to stay away from the right/wrong thing, Just because it makes me uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong for someone else. I'm just trying to understand why it makes me uncomfortable.
          • Re: Objectification?

            Mon, June 29, 2009 - 11:19 PM
            "I'm just trying to understand why it makes me uncomfortable"

            It is how you've been programmed to respond to that stimulus.
            • Re: Objectification?

              Mon, June 29, 2009 - 11:21 PM
              "I'm just trying to understand why it makes me uncomfortable"

              As a corollary, note that this has practically nothing at all to do with the other person. They just happen to fit the stimulus-pattern at which you've been programmed to squick.

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