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Jesus likened the Kingdom of Heaven to a Polygamous marriage. I quote from 'The Gospel of Matthew, Chapter 25' of the New Testament:
Jesus said, "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.......And while they (the 5 foolish virgins) went to buy (oil for their lamps), the bridegroom came, and those who were ready (the 5 wise virgins) went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut......."
Jesus said, "Then the kingdom of heaven shall be likened to ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom. Now five of them were wise, and five were foolish.......And while they (the 5 foolish virgins) went to buy (oil for their lamps), the bridegroom came, and those who were ready (the 5 wise virgins) went in with him to the wedding; and the door was shut......."
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, August 27, 2009 - 4:07 PMNope.
Sorry. I'd be delighted to be able to argue that the Bible endorses polyamory. It doesn't. Where it endorses women as being humans with any real rights at all, it endorses celibacy in the same breath.
What it endorses, when it endorses multiple marriage of any sort is polygyny, with undertones of a woman as property. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, August 28, 2009 - 12:42 AMPolygyny is one of many forms of Polyamory because 'Poly' means 'many' and 'amory' means 'loves'----therefore "many loves" which is the nature of Polygyny. I fully agree with you that multiple wives of Biblical husbands were often treated as property. There is a male chauvanist undertone running throughout the Old and New testaments because both Judaism and Christianity have become male-dominated religions. But that does not mean that these Biblical characters did not love their wives, in their own narrow, male-chaunanist way. And if they loved 'many wives', then it means they had 'many loves' which IS Polyamory!
But there is a big difference between the beautiful simplicity of Jesus' original teachings and the male-dominated, narrow and distorted teachings of the orthodox churches. Jesus regarded women and men as equals, and he never ever taught that men are the head of the family with a license to control and suppress their wives. Women, such as Mary Magdalene, were influential in the early years of the church, especially while Jesus was alive, but later on men sought to suppress and control Christ's female followers. And that's why women are still not allowed to be priests in most churches.
Unfortunately, Christian priests also began to teach that bodily desires were enemies of spiritual growth, and that sex should only be for creating offspring, not for purposes of pleasure. So they promoted celibacy as being superior to marriage---another way of suppressing women.
If you read Jesus' Parable of the Ten Virgins with an open mind, it's easy to see that it might possibly be likening the Kingdom of Heaven to a Polygamous marriage. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, August 28, 2009 - 1:49 AMLook, I'm sure you'd love to say Jesus endorsed all sorts of things. Many people with an agenda looking for an authority do. But, reinterpreting the Bible to suit one's political needs isn't really a lot better when it's to try to lend religious authority to multiple relationships than it is to justify anything else one wants to.
How about this: Polyamory is moral or immoral by how we actually behave within those relationships. Are we honest and loving with our partners? Kind to our partner's partners? Do we try to live with integrity?
You don't need to go hunting for Imaginary Friend authority for that.
When I was a lot younger and more cynical than I am now, my friends and I used to make a game of making an assertion and trying to find a passage in the King James Version of the Bible to back it up.
We never failed. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, August 28, 2009 - 1:09 PMNoel, this is an interesting perception:
"Look, I'm sure you'd love to say Jesus endorsed all sorts of things.
Many people with an agenda are looking for an authority do. But, reinterpreting the Bible to suit one's political needs isn't really a lot better when it's to try to lend religious
authority to multiple relationships than it is to justify anything else one wants to. "
I don't intend to accuse you of legalism here, that is another matter entirely.
I think Mark is trying"to suit" his spiritual needs here, not his political needs. And in any case,
our understanding of Yeshua's pronouncements regarding polyamory are not likely to be enhanced by any current English translations of the Bible.
BTW, I find YOUR choice of word to reflect a harsh, critical spirit. Is this truly what you intend? It would appear contrary to Yeshua's message of Love.
I suggest studying the Lord's Prayer and the Beatitutes in the Syrian-Aramaic version, which is the closest thing we have to His words. The translations of Neil Douglas-Klotz are illuminating:
www.selfhealingexpressions.com/lo...tml
And see the Abwoon resource center:
abwoon.infosaic15.com/shop/custom.aspx
Salaamu alaykum,
Jeffree -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, August 28, 2009 - 1:47 PMYes, I did intend to be critical.
I could be wrong, of course, but "Jesus said it was okay" in my observation, is more likely to be used in social organizational situations (i.e. political) than in trying to be okay with something internally.
I am heartily against using "Jesus said it was okay" to justify anything at all, even if it's something I personally approve of, such as polyamory. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, August 28, 2009 - 2:35 PMHmmmmmmm
I think my point is that We, or I at any rate, are attempting to rise above the level of "approval or disapproval" or the need for "justification". What is, is. The rest is simply our conditioned response.
That is the beauty I find in these translations of Yeshua's words: You find He is an enlightened Being, who has risen above the level of conditioned responses, as did the Buddha and the other Illuminated Masters. I like to think that Yeshua was not involved with wordly politics, and would not concern himself with the legality of marriage. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, August 28, 2009 - 9:06 PM" I like to think that Yeshua was not involved with wordly politics, and would not concern himself with the legality of marriage."
I like to think anybody (including him) would be absolutely ashamed to see how terrifyingly perverted his words have been in only a few thousand years). -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sat, August 29, 2009 - 1:04 PMThe game of telephone taught me an important lesson at a young age: if you want to know what someone said, go to the source. If the source is unavailable, be wary. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sun, August 30, 2009 - 12:08 PMYes, and after 2000+ years and very specifically crafty re-writes, everything in that book is suspect, not to mention the misinterpretations abounding from the lack of understanding the languages these stories were originally told in. The only thing you can get from reading the Bible, in reality, is whatever you want to get from it.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sun, August 30, 2009 - 3:04 PMEclair and Teresa, thanks for your positive and helpful comments. Yes, we need to get as close as possible to the source in order to receive reliable information.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sun, August 30, 2009 - 2:59 PMEdward, you speak truly.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sun, August 30, 2009 - 2:58 PMI heartily agree with you, Jeffree.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 3:52 PMInternally I'm completely convinced of the beauty and joy of Polyamory, and therefore I do not need Jesus, or anyone else, to validate it for me. I'm not a Christian who needs Jesus' approval on any subject; in fact, I'm not a Christian! I DO allow myself to gain inspiration from words he may have said, those words of his that ring true within my heart, just as I am inspired by other spiritual teachers such as Buddha, Krishna and Muhammed. In other words, I'm a free thinker who accepts truth no matter where it's found and no matter who says it, even if it's said by my local garbage collector.
The reason I posted this topic was to show that the Bible needs to be interpreted in a much broader, flexible, non-judgmental, more accurate and free thinking way. I was NOT using Jesus to justify my 'faith' in Polyamory. So many Christians are using Biblical phrases to justify their prejudice against gays and lesbians and bisexuals, to allow them to suppress women and prevent them being priests, to talk about sexuality as though it's an enemy of spiritual living! One of the ways of fighting against all this Christian intolerance, judgementalism, prejudice and narrow-mindedness is to reinterpret the Bible in a benevolent and truer way, so that the true nature of God/Goddess shines through, rather than a man-made distortion of Him/Her.
Since God IS Love, therefore, where love is, there God is! So it follows from this that gay, lesbian, bisexual and polyamorous forms of love are all expressions of Godliness. God IS gay Love, lesbian Love, bisexual Love and polyamorous Love!
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 4:10 PMThanks so much, Jeffree, for your support and for the link to the Aramaic version of the Lord's Prayer. I felt the beauty of His words in Aramaic.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sun, August 30, 2009 - 10:59 PMHey there was a lot of polyamory during Jesus’ time and before his time... It speaks of it all throughout the Old Testament. It isn't the kind of gender equal polamory we like to practice today though.
If a man sleeps with another man's wife for any reason it was punishable by death. If a man slept with another man's concubine it wasn't as bad… I think he pays a fine or something. If she doesn't live in her master’s house there is no fine. If a married man sleeps with an unmarried woman it was not big deal, there was no punishment at all. The glory days of the male ego. ;) -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 6:57 AMI don't need to validate my lovestyle by looking to a person who may or may not have lived 2000+ years ago.
If you're Polyamorous then that's fine by me, but quoting a book that has been rewritten as often as the Bible will lend you no credibility in my mind. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 11:03 PMHey I didn't say I believe in it. Just referencing it for conversation sake. I grew up with this stuff though so I pretty much know what is there. I believe it's just an old book about old ideas. Some may disagree but I believe that modern humanism has it's evolutionary root from the Bible. It may be considered a bit barbaric and primitive to us progressives now (I think so), but in it's time the Bible was very progressive, countering unimaginable lawlessness, injustice, and brutality (though the Bible isn't perfect in this regard). Now I find much of it meaningless except as a tool of reference (among other references) to understand the minds of others in our history.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 9:26 AMI have a hard time believing Jesus actually existed and isn't just an amalgamation of a bunch of preexisting stories and god concepts, much less that stories written hundreds of years after his supposed existence could capture his exact words. It's a fun fairytale and all, but really can't be used to justify polyamory (or anything really). -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 10:41 AMI find the historicity of Jesus a trifle improbable, since the story involves TWO cultures that were fairly compulsive record-keepers.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Mon, August 31, 2009 - 11:11 PMI think it's probable that Jesus existed. All the evidence points in that direction... but I think he was just a man that was severely hyped up... like Buddha, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, King Author, Beowulf, and other folklore we read about. It isn't really the fault of these guys... it's just followers/story tellers adding a little bit of their wishful thinking to the story as they pass it on to others. You can see this going on today. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 9:45 AM"All the evidence points in that direction"
I disagree, I think their are some major flaws in the Jesus myth, but I also don't think it really matters. But I totally understand a Christian trying to use Jesus to justify poly, Christians try to use their religion to justify everything, good and bad. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 11:15 AMTrue Dan10Things. But that isn't just Christian behavior. It's human behavior. We are always compromising our ideals to fit our needs and desires. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 12:56 PMWho is this "we" that you are talking about that are always compromising on their ideals? -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 1:59 PMGenerally speaking 'we' as a society, species or what have you, collective do always compromise our ideals if there is enough benefit in doing so... right? I thought this was obvious. Look at our politicians. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Tue, September 1, 2009 - 5:02 PMI think you're completely off topic at this point and I'm not sure what point you're making. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 9:44 AMI didn't follow your logic and thought the conversation was going on too far a tangent, sorry. I thought the conversation was more about using Jesus/the teachings of Christianity to justify polyamory. I disagree with your statement that "we are always compromising our ideals to fit our needs" or that this is human behavior. Plus, I didn't think the original poster was compromising their ideals (Christianity) to fit their needs (polyamory), they were just looking for a way to lay the groundwork for poly in the supposed teachings of Jesus. Personally, I don't find myself compromising my ideals very often, I'd hate to get lumped in with those that you say always do.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 9:21 AM"I think you're completely off topic at this point and I'm not sure what point you're making."
I think, actually, he's reinforcing YOUR point (and one I hold as well), that people will generally do what they WANT, and then use whatever's convenient or socially acceptable to justify it.
Religious books are great for this, plus one can even contradict them, and as long as there's a proper prayer for forgiveness, then all is well.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Sat, September 19, 2009 - 4:48 PMThere is evidence that the man actually existed and was the centre of an anti Roman feeling in Judea. He was as is written, descended from the true royal lineage and with his brother created an " embarrassment" for the Romans and their appointed "King". There is actually a reference to a " sit in " by Jesus followers in Caesarea.
He was the promoter of equal rights, although polyamory was never mentioned and those were equal rights for everyone including the Roman "Give to Ceaser what is Ceasers" when he spoke of taxes.
His claim on the throne is what got himself and his brother James into trouble and in front of the crowd with Pilot between them for that famous scene. This is where re-writes and translation comes in.
Pilot asked the crowd "Which shall I release, The Nazarine or the Bar Abbas?"
Now we know the Nazarine was Jesus, what we weren't told as children was that being a Nazarine had nothing to do with Nazareth. Bar in Judaic translates to "Son of" and Abbas to " Father" or God if you will.
This puts a whole new view as to the "Historical" situation. To translate Pilots words more accurately, "Which shall I release, Your King or your Priest?"
James, the priest, was to die at the hands of the Christian convert Paul, twenty years later on the steps of the temple. Paul would take over the new religion and begin the change that would be set in stone by Constantine 300 years later, when he commanded that everyone follow his rewrite, or die.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 5:40 PMI think Satanism is far more accepting of polyamory than Christianity.
I've never once heard of a Satanist tell people they can't have whatever relationships they wanted. I've never once heard a Satanism tell someone they're immoral. I've never once heard a Satanist say "Oh, I could NEVER do that!"
Basically, as far as personal freedoms go, Satanists seem, well, to rock. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Wed, September 2, 2009 - 8:21 PMLol... Wow.. now there is a radical idea. They probably don't mine the poly lifestyle but also don't mind rape and murder now and then either.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sata...tual_abuse -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 7:07 AM"Lol... Wow.. now there is a radical idea. They probably don't mine the poly lifestyle but also don't mind rape and murder now and then either."
Well, that probably depends on what type of satanism a person subscribes to. Most satanists I've met or interacted with have been more the Anton LaVey style satanist rather than the Lords of Chaos (a book about the early Norwegian Black Metal scene) style satanist.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:27 PM"They probably don't mine the poly lifestyle but also don't mind rape and murder now and then either. "
Well, first of all, the link refers to a panic that's not actually associated with actual people -- just some freakout attributed to Satanists.
Secondly, if Christians can get away with saying "Oh, those assholes that actually DO bomb abortion clinics and shoot people aren't REALLY Christian" then I think it stands to reason that any Satanist saying "Oh, those IMAGINARY people that do imaginary things aren't really Satanists" has even more credibility.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 9:36 AMSatanists are definitely a lot more fun to hang around with than Christians and certainly less judgmental... was there ever any doubt of this? -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 10:52 AMLess judgmental yes but I don't know about more fun. I admit. I only knew one. He liked to stick cats in the microwave as some satanic ritualistic thing. He was also totally obsessed with blood. The dude scared the bejessus out of me. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:30 PM"He liked to stick cats in the microwave as some satanic ritualistic thing. He was also totally obsessed with blood. The dude scared the bejessus out of me."
I doubt he was a Satanist. Was probably just an asshole.
Besides, let's not pretend Christianity isn't TOTALLY obsessed with blood, now. That would just be crazy. -
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 1:19 PM"let's not pretend Christianity isn't TOTALLY obsessed with blood"
-Haha. I didn't think about that. Good point.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, September 4, 2009 - 11:37 AMGo bible diving.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:41 PMI've never met a church burning or cat killing type of Satanist. I've met quite a few gothy pagany witches or people that read Anton LaVey stuff and are more into the intellectual approach to Satanism. To me as an atheist it's just as wack as believing in god and religion, but they tend to be more fun and less uptight people than your typical Christian. I want to go to neither's church/ceremonies, I had enough church to last me a lifetime growing up.
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Thu, September 3, 2009 - 12:29 PM"was there ever any doubt of this?"
Oh lordie, no!
I'm just saying that anyone who wants a religion that lets them be human might find richer pastures than Christianity.
And by "might" I mean "would be hard-pressed NOT to."
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Re: Jesus Spoke of Polyamory
Fri, September 18, 2009 - 3:36 AMWho cares what fictional characters say anyway? You might just as well have posted "Mickey Mouse spoke of polyamory."
There's literally no historical evidence for his existence. He's more than likely just a name in a book.
Let's stick to real humans.