Polyamory's topics - tribe.net

What makes you jealous?

2008-07-03T22:43:50Z

Although, of course, being poly means you're much too enlightened to admit to jealousy... ;-) What is it that awakens your green eyed monster?

Personally, I'm not jealous of my husband's relationships/interactions with other people... but I have a hard time watching my "secondary" (for lack of a better descriptor) partners flirt with others. Maybe if the relationship deepens and I feel more secure, this will pass. But for now I just have to do my best not to show it!

posted in Polyamory - 20 replies

Apologies

2008-07-03T20:05:03Z

Apologies are tricky. Emotions are high, everyone's a little hot under the collar, egos are bruised, and everything feels a wee bit tense, balanced on a needle's tip and wibbly-wobbly.

And, somehow, in the middle of that, Someone owes Someone Else an apology.

What are your thoughts on apologies? How does one successfully navigate such potentially treacherous waters safely? What tools, tips, or techniques have helped you do this? What assumptions or mistakes have you made and hope to or have corrected in future occurrences? Is there a difference between "I'm sorry" and "I apologize"? Is there a difference between what we learned about apologizing as little kids versus what we do as adults? What works? What doesn't? Why? Why not?

posted in Polyamory - 10 replies

Went from really ok to not at all poly within hours

2008-07-03T18:45:53Z

Hi Everyone,

Part of this is me venting and another part is truly asking for others experience/advice in this situation. I'm in a primary relationship, we date a girlfriend and have an open relationship. I've been talking to guy #2 (only used as an identifier) for almost a month both online and phone who is married. We both agree to meet. Talk things over with respective partners. Mine is good. He's says his is good. We meet - had a terrific time - we both check in with partners on the date - seems like everything is still good and left the date with both of us having a good time and more than a little hope that this might progress to something more. I got home excitedly shared my evening with my partner who grinned and petted me. He got home and proceeded to have a conversation until 5am because his partner went from really ok (into poly and being opened) to not poly at all. WTF??? Now I will add this - this is her first open/poly relationship (yes, she knew from the very beginning he was this way) and this was the first time he went on a date with someone while being with her.

So now I'm left with "it might be best if we were friends from afar" and "give it time" and me being highly suspicious of her acceptance of poly at all. I'm hurt (it takes a lot of effort to put myself out there darn it!) and I sooo don't get the whole insecurity/jealousy thing.

Anyone else experience this? Any advice - cut and run, be patient and hang in there?

Thanks!

posted in Polyamory - 11 replies

What's the best thing...

2008-07-03T13:59:12Z

...or ONE of the best things (in case you don't want to have to pick a BEST thing) that a partner has ever done for you?

How did things change after that? (if they did)

posted in Polyamory - 5 replies

Rules and all that other stuff

2008-07-03T13:43:31Z

Been thinking about rules and stuff, as for some strange reason, it keeps coming up.

I've figured the following out, as a sort of working theory. If any of it works for you, great. if any of it doesn't, well, more to discuss, yes?

If you've got a lot of rules and a lot of expectations and a lot of things you must have other partners do, then by all means bring them up, and make them as explicit as you need to. Some people will get turned off by that and not be interested in you. That's okay -- if you need people to act a certain way, and these people don't want to... you don't need them.

If you don't want a lot of rules or expectations, then be explicit about that when you start in with someone, especially if they seem to be "ruly". Don't waffle -- tell them right up front. be explicit. And if they have a rule and you can't or won't do that in the long term -- say so. This might turn them off and send them away, but that's okay, because... you don't need them.

See, it's not complicated.

No matter who you are, LEARN YOURSELF. Know WHY you want what you want, and be able to explain it clearly and simply. And do so.

There are lots and lots and lots of people on this planet. More than you will ever meet. So, there's no need for you to compromise a required value, just so you can fuck someone, unless you are a deceptive asshole. And you might as well be upfront about it, because no matter WHAT you're into, you can find someone who is exactly complementary and you'll suit each other to a "t".

If someone can post on the internet that they want to kill and cook someone and they have to SIFT THROUGH APPLICANTS, then you can find a romantic partner that fits your needs like a glove, or near enough as to make no difference.

So, understand who you are, be willing to explain it clearly, and know what is and is not acceptable to you.

This is not complicated.

And anyone trying to tell you you aren't "true" poly or that you're doing it wrong, or that you HAVE to have this or that certain rule (or no rules) can yammer on all they want and it doesn't make one skinny pickle's difference -- because there ARE people out there who are a perfectly fine fit. People can ask questions, or they can rant or they can rave or whatever. And maybe something they say makes sense or maybe it doesn't. Only you can decide that for your own self.

Be yourself. Yourself might change over time, and that's okay, too, but be who you are right now. Understand why, and accept yourself.

Because if you've got that running well, then you'll turn away people who are turned away by it, and you'll attract people who are attracted by it.

And isn't that part of the point?

posted in Polyamory - 63 replies

New possible poly's, in need of your experience!!

2008-07-02T19:55:01Z

This is my first post on this tribe, as we were directed here from a burning man tribe due to some topics we were discussing...

We are an outgoing couple, who both have a deep admiration for women. dG is a true bi, and we both have very high appetites... Recently, we had our first 3-some, which went flawlessly!! From there, we have both grown closer to this woman, and she is someone that has been drama-free and open to anything and everything...

In trying to search through our feelings about what is the norm, or might be acceptable, I've been researching many different topics, including polyamory. All 3 of us were feeling guilty at times because we would be hanging out, and with all 3 of us wanting to hook up again, even though dG and I are in a 'relationship'.

Today, after reading through this tribe in length, I suggested an amnesty/get-out-of-jail-free-card conversation, and dG told me things she has been holding inside, feeling guilty about. I am not a jealous person at all, so I knew if she was carrying something around and feeling guilty about it, it would explain her recent behavior. After sharing what she did, she felt better, I felt better, and now we want to discuss how we want to move forward and be open AS the fantasizing begins, or BEFORE something happens, or what we BOTH may want as it relates to this 3rd person...

So I wanted to say thanks for the amnesty idea (worked great), the link to the xeromag site that had so much good info related to Polyamory, Jealousy, and some great insight into relationships in general!!!

Next step: We are inviting this 3rd person over to our house on Thursday, and let her read through the xeromag what-is-polyamory section, and then ask her what she thinks about it as it relates to us... but this is all so new... is this the right way to handle it? We are looking for suggestions on how to introduce this idea or concept to her, and see what happens. I'm pretty sure if it wasn't something she was interested in, she would still want to hang out and have fun, so we're not worried about that...

Just looking for some guidance, helpful hints, maybe how you handled your first (possible) poly situation.

Great info on theis tribe by the way... thanks to all!! ;)

posted in Polyamory - 5 replies

Ok going to ask...

2008-07-01T16:14:48Z

I am new and learning. I realize it is about what is okay with me otherwise why would I go for it? But there is always compromise too...so what now? If I don't want a relationship but completely enjoy certain people's company how do I balance?

posted in Polyamory - 7 replies

I am new and I love you! :)

2008-07-01T02:08:51Z

Happy day my new friends!
I am excited to join this group and look forward to sharing thoughts, love and support with you all.
Love and Light,
Swan

posted in Polyamory - 5 replies

who's weird?

2008-06-29T03:58:13Z

My therapist suggested I should stop thinking of myself as weird or unusual and describe myself as a normal person who is more honest about sexuality than 99.8 per cent of the population. (I've heard that .2 per cent of the population openly practice non-monogamy.) Non-monogamy and bisexuality are majority characteristics, only I claim them and most people don't. I thought she had a good point. I like the idea of a polyamory "community," but on the other hand sometimes I wonder whether giving it a label marginalizes something that isn't really marginal at all. The only unusual thing we're doing is being honest.

posted in Polyamory - 1 reply

Polyamory and pathological liars

2008-06-29T02:35:50Z

It's not a good combination.

A good portion of my world just came crashing down last night. I discovered that not only has my now ex-sweetie been lying to me about his other partners, he's been lying to them about me. But he's also lied about aspects of the biz we're in together. One of the members of the board of directors for his non-profit (the one that's publishing my books and video documentaries and he is the executive director of) doesn't even know he's been named as a board member...and I highly doubt he knows that my ex-sweetie has been fucking his 23 year old daughter every week for the past 5 weeks either. What astounds me is that he was given a carte blanch hall pass to have other lovers anytime providing he's honest with them and me. They deserve to know he's in a relationship. right? (was)

Anyway, he took a number of my ideas and claimed them as his own to several people. He also took almost the entire amount of funding we'd received from one of my clients and used it for his own personal use-- on top of a $2000 loan I gave him and another $700 loan another lover gave him. We both lent him this money so he could pay his back rent and avoid being evicted. Yet, it never went to that and he got evicted anyway. The plan was for him to move in with me (this was before I discovered he was a pathological liar), so I cleared out the entire attic space, got an air conditioner and cleaned the carpets for his arrival...just wanted him to have a separate space of his own while going throgh this transition. Anyway, it turns out he's been telling people that he never actually intended on moving in with me, he just agreed to it to keep me happy. WTF?

I don't blame the poly lifestyle in any way for this, but I can't believe I got so entangled with someone who is seemingly incapable of being honest with anyone, even himself. Pathological liars and polyamory are just not a good combination, but leave it to me to find one. Fuck.

-K

posted in Polyamory - 8 replies

Question about disclosure

2008-06-29T02:30:54Z

At some point my sweetie and I will once again venture forth into polyamory. I would like to approach it tis time with as much information and tools for success as possible. In keeping with that I have read through every post on Edward's thread about success, but there is one thing that didn't seem to come up much...the issue of disclosure.

I am feeling that I need full disclosure. In fact, one of the key issues I've been working through has to do with trust after a 6 year long marriage that was riddled with lies. That was 5 1/2 years ago and I've done a lot of work on it, but this is my first serious relationship since then and I'm finding that some of that baggage is still there, waiting to creep in when I least expect it. I have no reason whatsoever NOT to trust my beloved, and thus far he's been completely honest with me (I believe...see? there it is again) and if this were more of a casual thing these triggers wouldn't even exist. I know this because I've dated a few men in the past 5 1/2 years and never once experienced these doubts...and it's so unfair to him that our deeper bond is triggering them, but there it is.

In any case, I would just like to pose the question of full disclosure or no disclosure or whatever lay in between to all of you. What seems t work best in your situation? And more importantly, why?

Thanks.

-K

posted in Polyamory - 39 replies

"If I'm lyin', I'm dyin'!"

2008-06-29T02:19:46Z

(I was very glad that the character who uttered that quote on an episode of Quantum Leap stayed alive for the whole episode!)

Been thinking about lying and scamming and religion and other related things lately. Had a pleasant round-robin chat with Chuck Whitlock, too, (a while back, but it all burbles together) and if you're not familiar with him, spend a few minutes on Google. He's a very nice guy and has a very good mission in life. Like Andrew Vachss, but more smiley.

But how does this connect to polyamory, you might ask? It does, it does. One step at a time. This is only one of the steps.

I think human beings have a peculiar cognitive flaw. Well, maybe it's a flaw, maybe it's a feature, but it really does seem to be there. This morning, I've been thinking about it as a backdoor right to your brain.

So, we've got this backdoor to our brain. What does this backdoor allow through, you might ask?

Stories.

Seems simple, on the face of it.

Stories have a way of getting into our brain more easily than, say, the Laws of Thermodynamics. Even math teachers know story problems are better than cold equations.

So, stories.

We love stories. We love storytelling. All the way back when mankind was just a mindless apelike creature barely brought into sentience by our Martian overlords, we've loved storytelling. The language of metaphor gets right on inside, right past whatever other guards we have set up on our brain.

On the good side, this means we can learn even more than our direct experience. We can learn not to open an airlock in deep space. We can learn that when hunting a really BIG shark, we will need a bigger boat. We can learn that if you're going to live in the middle of nowhere, have a well-stocked rec room and a good understanding of common household chemicals.

We love stories and stories love us, and they all go right -- zzzap -- into our brains.

But...

And here's the dark side of that particular back door...

But, OTHER things can get into that back door, too. Still stories, but stories woven malevolently. Stories woven to appeal to our emotions, bypassing our intellect. Someone telling that, when they're with us, they feel safer than when they were with their ex. That's a story that goes right on in. Or when we can't afford a big screen TV, but a guy tells us a story about how he's in a hurry and we can save him unloading time and us cold cash if we buy big screen TVs from the back of his truck ("Oh and here, let me get you one that hasn't been opened yet...").

These are a bit on the malevolent side.

But they still get in, because we still have that backdoor that is wide-freakin'-open to something entertaining. Something storylike.

So, where we might not cater to any sort of bullshit, when it's framed as an entertaining story, or a story we really want to hear (which, one could argue is roughly equivalent to "entertaining"), then it'll slide right past the cognitive centers, right past the gatekeepers.

In short, the same mechanism that allows us to enjoy watching Escape from the Planet of the Apes (and weep at Caesar's fate) ALSO allows people with a modicum of skill to get in and fuck our shit up.

Man, doesn't THAT seem like a crap trade?

When I mentioned this to a good friend, she wrote "It is kind of weird. It's too bad we don't have a mechanism to remove the bad in favor of the good -- or do we?"

I think we do, but it requires some conditions be met, neither of which is easy.

The first is that we have to plant our observational ass on that back door and watch everything that goes in. Observation. I guess we really ought to be doing that in the first place, but it's a back door, so it's probably unattended. This means observation takes conscious effort. If you're getting an emotional rise, check that back door -- might be something getting in!

The second is training. training is simple, but few people stick with it. When something comes in that back door that you like or approve of, reward yourself. Doesn't have to be much -- just a pat on the head, something like that. Enjoy it. Savor it. If something slides in that you decide is shit, then DON'T reward yourself (or if you want faster, possibly more volatile results, punish yourself, but I'd recommend caution). It's up to you to decide what's good or bad for you, of course.

A third thing is that you have to kinda deprogram another cognitive flaw we seem to have. This flaw is the idea that we can't "unmake" stuff. For example, most everybody can set one face of a Rubik's Cube, and possibly two, but most of us aren't willing to "unmake" our two faces to rebuild it with three, four, or five faces. A lot of puzzles depend on our inability to deconstruct and reconstruct -- we seem to need succesive approximation to feel progress.

You have to be pretty harsh with this third one, and here's why: Some things come in disguised. Some people, when we meet them, are sweet as a biscuit. And then, once they've swanned in on a good story, they start going bad, but only over time (it's a selective thing -- the ones that smell bad immediately never get past the gate, so by definition, the only bad ones inside are the ones that LOOKED good to start). Because it happens over time, we mistakenly think that we can't do anything about it, because we have some sort of investment or something.

I should point out that I think one ought to be harsh in the application of the extraction (in other words, when it's gotta go, it's gotta go), but that one should be kind to oneself (hey, nobody's perfect, and even if you were, this probably would STILL have gotten in) during the extraction process. It's hard to be kind to oneself. That's a whole thread, I think!

Part of the training, though, requires that if we DISCOVER something rotten in Denmark (my apologies to the Danes on the list), we grab it by it's wibbly bits and we drag it out ANYWAY. We HAVE to, in order to improve our operations at this back door.

Getting those three pieces in place and getting them moving goes a long, long way to helping us compensate for this back door. It's certainly not perfect, of course (nothing is, in this respect), but it's a strong set of tools, and building them and using them will probably never do you wrong.

And finally, the last bit, the last piece to this, is our own attitudes towards ourselves. This cognitive flaw, this back door I'm postulating, is in everyone, and no one has a perfect tool set for protecting it. But it's hard to accept that, so when someone DOES get under our skin, we find ourselves confabulating grandiose scenarios. Instead of just another poor schlub on the planet, this person has to become a Master Manipulator. They have to be Pure Evil.

I really doubt that's true. I tend to think that most folks on this planet roll along basically happy and content, with the usual wobbles, and that sometimes, things happen. Sometimes those things cascade and become bigger (like a Three's Company episode, or something from season two of the BBC series Coupling).

Yeah, it's POSSIBLE that there are Master Manipulators out there, but I think most folks are probably like me, just kinda trying to do the best they can. So, if they've gotten under my skin, I certainly can feel okay pulling 'em out, but there's no reason to be unkind about it.

If we're being kind to ourselves, it's not too hard to be kind to those being extracted.

This does not mean the extraction should not occur, of course.

For folks who are into Multiple Partner Disorder, there's a confounding factor. We have a vulnerability that a lot of other folks don't. We have a ROMANTIC vulnerability. We don't have this sort of automatic "no other lovers" mechanism, which can be very protective. What this means is that there's yet ANOTHER way of getting in through that back door, because we have basicaly short-circuited the alarm for possible romantic partners more than the one we might already have.

Even WORSE, by thinking of ourselves as some sort of minority, or operating under some sort of starvation economy, sometimes all it takes is one person saying "hey, I'm poly, too!" and they're already one step closer to the edge of that back door. Especially when we're starting out, still new, and looking for ANYONE who isn't repulsed. That back door is WIDE open, baby, and I'd be surprised a pair of flaming yaks couldn't get in, frankly!

So, that, I think, is one of the funny/useful/hazardous cognitive flaws in human beings, some compensatory strategies, and how it applies in particular to polyamory.

It's a working theory, anyway, so I'm opening it up for discussion, dissection, questions, observations....

Cheers,

Edward

posted in Polyamory - 12 replies

New to this and sucking at it...

2008-06-28T19:52:12Z

Howdy, all. Just joined this tribe. Was hoping for some advice on learning to cope with jealousy - being new to polyamorous relationships - if anyone has any to give! Would be MUCH appreciated.

At the risk of typing too much, I'll give some back story/info on my particular relationship situation, as well...

I've talked about polyamory and various polyamorous relationships pretty extensively, for a few years, with a close friend who's poly. I'm 22 and just started dating after having spent the first 21 years of my life without any dating/relationships whatsoever, and a good 10 years being very invested in many intense, all-consuming, agonizing crushes on unavailable girls. I've been notorious for getting a lot of couple-crushes, as well, but some of that could, likely, be the 'unavailable' element at work, as they were all to my knowledge in monogamous relationships, and I mainly fixated on only one person in each couple.

When I started dating, in the past year, I suddenly had many opportunities presented to me at once, and didn't feel inclined to limit my dating to one person at a time. I wasn't sure at that point (and I'm really not entirely sure, still) - having no previous relationship experience - whether polyamory or monogamy was for me. I could see the appealing and logically/ethically interesting elements of polyamory, for sure. I never got very invested in any of these relationships, early on, but was fairly interested in establishing them as open, particularly when I got involved with a woman in an open marriage.

I was extremely interested in her and totally comfortable with the idea of her husband and her marriage. A while after (and I find it sort of interesting that I happened to meet two poly women that I was more interested in anyone I'd dated before at approximately the same time.), I met another woman who's in an open relationship with her boyfriend of over a year and messes around with other people, etc. I became extremely interested in her, to the point of it becoming all-consuming and making my other crushes fade away entirely. The married woman and I stopped seeing each other, because of each of us being busy with the rest of our lives, and I wound up only seeing this new woman - I'll call her 'Z' - which was good for me, because I only had the desire to see Z and it all felt false and forced when I was with the married woman, eventually, as much as I liked her and enjoyed her company.

I do still worry that seeing Z exclusively while she isn't seeing me exclusively is a bad idea, and I often feel as if I ought to date and/or fool around with others - not because I'm actually interested, but because it seems dangerous to only date her or like I should be non-exclusive, too, if she is. I tried it a couple of times and it was uncomfortable and pretty uninteresting, whereas I was previously all over any girl who looked at me twice. Is it just flat-out a bad idea to have basically a monogamous relationship with someone who isn't doing the same? Or is there some way to work with it?

For a while, I was entirely comfortable with Z's boyfriend, their relationship, her being poly. Then I started having nightmares that I was jealous. Then she temporarily broke up with him (after he started being really jealous and negative), and I - despite myself, and quite guiltily in fact - felt incredibly relieved. When they quickly got back together, I felt crushed. But I knew I couldn't expect Z to switch to monogamous relationships for me, as she has thought out polyamory extensively and decided it's for her. I actually need to talk to her about this more, as we've only touched on the subject a little from time to time, and I'd like to be more familiar with her point of view.

I'm completely, painfully, wonderfully, achingly in love with Z, by now, and I know she loves me, too. Her boyfriend seems like an interesting guy. We haven't talked much besides initial brief conversations, after some later uncomfortable moments, though we plan to, soon, so we can - in theory - help alleviate some of the crappy mutual jealousy that's been heavily in the air. I haven't talked much to Z about him or her relationship with him, either, which is a much-needed conversation for us, I think. She always reminds me that I should feel free and welcome to be involved with anyone else I'd like to, even if it could possibly make her a little uncomfortable to hear the details of it, and I really respect that she is willing to have such a generous attitude, though I don't want anyone else right now. She's all I can think about. Maybe this means I want too much of her. I wish I could have such a generous attitude, as well, and I do say the same things to her, but I don't feel like I MEAN them. I want to mean them, but I can't figure out how to.

I've waited for what feels like forever to be involved with someone I really care about, and now I've found this amazing relationship with this amazing person and it exceeds what I could have even hoped for and I'm totally in love and in awe of it. Every moment I'm with her, everything feels so right, but, often, when I'm away, I start feeling anxious and insecure and jealous and miserable and lonely. When I think about or see her boyfriend, I feel like dying. I know it's wrong and selfish of me to wish she wanted me so completely that she doesn't want anyone else, but I can't quite sort out how to switch this part of my brain off - how to tune that thought out.

The more I'm with her, the more I feel like a.) I'm absolutely madly in love with her and b.) the more I feel like I might need a monogamous relationship in order to be happy and to not miserable half the time... and a.) and b.) do not seem to go together. The best I've done with dealing is in those moments (and there are many of them) when I try to forget about her boyfriend and pretend like he isn't a reality, but then when I am faced with his undeniable existence, it positively kills me. And I don't want to make Z uncomfortable with bringing him up, as he's an important part of her life and I'd love for her to be able to be open about anything and everything she wants to be. And I'd love to love everything about her and her life. I don't know how to improve my attitude... It's why I want to try talking to him and her more about these issues, become more familiar with him, etc. But, beyond that, any thoughts/advice...? The good stuff is SO good, but the bad stuff is just excruciating. She's worth it, but it hurts a lot, and often.

Sorry such a ridiculously long post!! Thanks much.

posted in Polyamory - 11 replies

Poly FAQs?

2008-06-26T05:16:03Z

So...

For the purposes of activism/education, I want to attempt to create some sort of flyer or something. I want to start off with some FAQs about polyamory. What do folks think the most-asked questions are? And what are some answers?

I figure "What is polyamory?" probably tops the list.

Others-

How do you handle STDs/ safe sex?
Don't you all get jealous?

I'd love input! And I promise to post any finished product here, too.

posted in Polyamory - 8 replies

hated.

2008-06-26T02:50:16Z

i just need some strength here, or something. i've been so hated this weekend by people because i'm polyamorous.

i had a boyfriend who was cool with me having a husband, i mean we all met and had the safe sex talk, and joked about stuff and life, etc. it was fine. our friends were fine, they knew. but it all exploded in my face this weekend, i'm in shock. i don't know if it was me.... but now my new ex hates me, our "friends" now talk about me as the "c"-word. i mean, the last time i saw my ex i thought he was going to spit in my eye. i really did, he was that full of hate.

on top of that, someone i did some photo work for now refuses to let me see the work because i won't sleep with him, just others. ugh, makes me sick. well, i was an idiot there, lesson learned.

i just feel so stupid and thrown out. even people i know won't look me in the eye, even though they knew about me being poly. we used to be friends. i mean, we're all actor's, for fuck's sake, we're supposed to be able to empathize with humans, not discard them.

i wonder if i should just stay in the poly closet. is the rest of the world just not safe out there? i'm so tired of being hated. of being used. treated like i didn't deserve to be an equal. i feel like maybe the only safe place for me is at home, or maybe in poly circles. everyone else is becoming a mirage i'm scared to see.

i apologize for being a downer, but appreciate any kindness or words of wisdom or whatever that isn't hateful... thanks. *hug*

posted in Polyamory - 39 replies

Is it one or the other?

2008-06-24T13:49:01Z

I was just curious, as I have spoken with my marriage counselor recently, and he stated that statistics show that most open marriage situaitons do not work out, and the number one cause that they don't is because of deceipt and betrayal. I got to thinking about this, and it would seem that either the marriage fails, or the other relationships outside the marriage eventually fall by the wayside. I was just curious to get feedback from people on this site about their experiences that are in that open marriage situation, and how many people on here ended up in divorce over the situation. Not to be negative or anything, just curious...

posted in Polyamory - 44 replies

New Misanthrope Column

2008-06-23T12:02:11Z

There’s been a few discussions going around various polyamory communities talking about relationship rules, tastes in physiques, and a lot of other things.

Part of the discussion will invariably involve why some standard or another is wrong. When you dig a little deeper, it is often because that particular person doesn’t meet said standard.

I have an answer to that.

More? http://www.polyamorousmisanthrope.com/2008/06/23/but-that-disqualifies-me

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

Inner Hardass

2008-06-23T10:57:46Z

Noel referenced her "Inner Hardass" column in a recent thread--this is my favorite column--
A while back Edward said something about how there's often a moment when we know a relationship isn't going to work out, but it takes us forever to act on it. I've had the same experience so now I have a goal to minimize the time between that moment and actually dumping my date--I made up my own list of "inner hardass" boundaries/rules based on a mental review of those moments. And even if I don't have the list with me I can always ask myself mentally, "Has the moment arrived? Is this it?" It's quite helpful actually. Well, at the risk of boring everyone and/or sounding like a fascist, here is my list--maybe you have one too, I'd love to hear it--and yeah, I know it all makes me sound unappealing, but to be honest I've spent most of my life being accommodating and now I'm old enough that I'd rather just have what I want.

--If I feel I am being treated disrespectfully (inappropriate anger, condescending remarks, monosyllabic answers to important questions, etc.), I will bail out. I'm going to trust my instincts on this question because they've always been right, and I'm not listening to a lot of argumentation about it. I might listen to an apology once. If you can't even apologize, forget it.

--If you disrespect my safe-sex rules or make me feel guilty about them, it's over. (I will forgive one benign effort to weasel out of them, and I will give you fair warning of my position. Please don't keep bringing it up unless you have life-partner status.)

--I don't want to be involved in your legal problems. The first time I am asked to sign a deposition, there will be no more dates.

--If you feel the need to make some speech about how you don't really care about me that much, you didn't really mean what you said, or that you aren't interested in being "serious," that will be a terminal conversation—obviously whatever I wanted from the relationship is not going to happen. No we can't "be friends" or "friends with benefits." I do occasionally have casual relationships and friends with benefits, but by mutual agreement from the beginning. If this subject comes up, I will cut my losses.

--I expect you to return phone calls promptly, answer email, and agree to a schedule of reciprocal visits commensurate with the seriousness of the relationship. I do not wait around by the phone. And I don't care what a fabulous city you live in or how uncool my town seems to you, I will not visit you every time.

--If it becomes apparent that you have problems making simple plans a few days (or weeks, if air travel is involved) ahead of time and sticking to them, I will give up.

--If I see you disrespecting a committed partner (or anyone, really—a friend, my ex-husband, my other lovers, your other lovers, the waiter--but especially a committed partner), there will be no more dates. I will assume that I am next in line for the same treatment.

--Get your finances together. I will not offer you money to make a child support payment or pay your rent, nor would I ask this from you. You don't need to be rich, but you do need to be financially stable and able to meet your obligations; unless we are in a long-term, committed relationship, do not ask me to weather a "run of bad luck" with you. Get a job and get your life together first. You or I, whoever has more means, may buy the other occasional gifts, plane tickets, hotel rooms, and meals in restaurants that the other can't afford; if we are not willing to do this, we do cheap things together so neither of us goes bankrupt trying to keep up.

--Get your anger under control. If there are childhood traumas you haven't got over, if you have issues with your family or with your ex or with someone else in your life, if you feel like a victim, see a therapist and maybe give me a call when you've solved the problem.

--No means no. I will not be argued with about my feelings or told how I feel or what I think or what I need.

--I don't care how professionally successful you are or how pressing your problems are. Your time is not more valuable than mine and the first time you suggest this or behave as though it were true, I will leave. I will of course understand scheduling difficulties and emergencies up to a point, and I will expect the same consideration from you; but if it becomes obvious that our schedules will prevent me from getting whatever I need from the relationship, I'll give up.

--I will quickly tire of your asking for favors that consume my entire day, as though I had nothing better to do. Double points if you yell at me for messing up some detail at any point when I am performing the favor. Triple points if you also ask me for money.

--I will not be blamed for your problems, nor do I believe that blame belongs in a mature relationship. I will explain this to you, but based on experience I'm not optimistic that it will have an effect. If you're a habitual blamer, expect our relationship to be short.

--I will make a good-faith effort to get along with your other partners. I will begin with the assumption that they are nice, friendly, sexy people and will seek out the closest relationship that works with the personalities involved. I don't need to be intimate or best friends with everyone, but if significant tensions develop, I may leave; competition and exclusion are not my style. If exclusion is your style, we cannot have a serious relationship.

--I don't care how many partners you have or which if any is "primary": you are not authorized to disrupt my life more than theirs or to inconvenience me more than them, nor to treat me with less consideration. If my needs and those of your "primary" conflict, we will talk about it and it works out or it does not; I do not automatically defer. "Secondary" does not mean inferior. (Actually I will probably ask you not to refer to me as a "secondary," though that is not necessarily a dealbreaker.)

--I will not indulge my jealousies, but if you meet someone new and our relationship changes significantly and I feel neglected--we will discuss it, but I may leave. I do not consider polyamory a binding contract to stay with you if my needs are no longer being met.

--If you cannot acknowledge my point of view in an argument, I have no way of resolving differences with you, and I will leave.

--If I am fucking you, the words "it's none of your business" or "that's private" do not apply. You may request more private time or space, but you may not tell me that a question of mine is inappropriate. If I'm not fucking you, go for it.

--If you have a problem with my being polyamorous, you have two weeks to get over it. I am not converting to monogamy for you and I will not listen to recriminations on this issue. In particular, the first time I hear a lecture about what Jesus wants me to do, I will end the relationship.

--I have very strict boundaries regarding my children. Allow me to introduce them to you on my schedule and control the degree of interaction. All parenting decisions will be made by me and the children's father.

posted in Polyamory - 18 replies

Affording Safe Sex? Or Screwing It.

2008-06-23T05:13:39Z

hello! i've searched this and other tribes but can't find the info i am looking for, and i am getting all tied up in a political knot again.

i live in NYC. i have a husband, and a boyfriend, and we want to have STD tests done for all of us so we can take our relationships to a more physical level. however, in order to get tested, we have to pay at least $200 each. we can't afford this, we're struggling to raise a child in the most expensive city in the country! plus, my boyfriend is here on a VISA and is not allowed to work by law, so he has no money either, and of course no benefits. i can't find any clinic anywhere that will test for all STDs without cleaning us out. my nerdy hubby and i have been googling and checking out clinics, but so far nothing.

is this the way it is? only the people who can afford to pay for ALL these tests be the ones that can practise safe sex?? is safe sex a matter of economics? if we can't afford these tests, then what happens to the people who are worse off than us? are there places i don't know about? planned parenthood is extremely expensive here, and they don't even test for everything.

what do i do? not have sex? forget paying for daycare for a month? what do we do??

i appreciate anyone's time on this. Obama 2008!!

posted in Polyamory - 17 replies

books on poly families

2008-06-21T01:43:47Z

Can anyone recommend a book about polyamory and families? I recently came out to my ex-husband--I was afraid he'd find out from someone else--and he's freaking out, which was predictable, and I'm doing my best to reassure him though of course I'm scared he'll take the kids. I'm going to try to find a poly-friendly family counselor for us but if there is something he could read that you think might help--he's very traditional--I thought of giving him Deborah Anapol's book but not sure if that would help or hurt. I should clarify that he always sort of knew I was like this--it's part of why we got divorced--but he's having trouble adjusting to my new relationship, which is with a couple, and he's worried about the kids.

posted in Polyamory - 11 replies

what kind of Poly are you?

2008-06-16T02:42:38Z

From a different post I took this on what kind of Poly are you?

• #: How many partners in relationship
• M,F : Sexes
• Poly-mono: You mostly date alone with one of your partners. (you and 1 partner go to a party)
• Poly-Poly: You mostly date with your poly relationships at the same time (you and more then one of your partners go party)
• Open: You have a Open relationship with in your poly relationship
• Closed: You are in a Closed relationship with in your poly relationship
• Hierarchal: You use the Primary / Secondary Titles
• Equal: You do not use Hierarchal titles.
• Live in Together: You live with your poly partners Same bedroom.
• Live in Separate: You live with your poly partners separate bedrooms
• Live out: you live with none or one of your poly partners.
• Add your own: whatever

So just for fun what are you: and what do you want to be if it is different then what you currently are.

So for example I am 3-MFF,Poly-Poly,Open, Equal, Live in Separate.

posted in Polyamory - 12 replies

The hierarchy

2008-06-15T19:14:12Z

So I've gotta ask: in a situation in which we're basically trying to love everyone to the fullest extent of their ability to be loved, what's the point in delineating some lovers as "primary" vs. "secondary" vs. "tertiary?"

I personally look at polyamory as a way of exiting from the existing schemes of jealousy, possessiveness, selfishness, and control that come with the whole monogamy boat. I've learned two lessons over several relationships: love good, control bad.

A lot of that has come over several sub-lessons. They take many different forms, and shorten to a series of adages that create my own perspective on free love. Sharing is caring. New relationships don't come at the expense of old ones. Don't expect to be shared if you can't share back. Don't be afraid of new love. So on, so forth. And one thing that I've definitely learned is that none of us have *all* the lessons, and sometimes fall into the trap of thinking that once we get our second girlfriend, we're suddenly free of those impulses to control our lovers.

We're all familiar with the classic pro-poly argument: I can love many women in the same way my parents love all their children. They didn't have to stop loving me when my younger sister was born, and my lover didn't have to stop loving her existing partner when I came into the fold. And, in the same way I can't demand my parents love me more than my younger sister, it feels ridiculous to ask the same thing of my lover.

To me, the practice of using some kind of "primary" status is just another mechanism for control over the relationship, an unnecessary structure that only gets in the way of talking about what's for dinner. And let's turn it around, too. Many of us insist on being "the primary" without considering how it would feel to be named a "secondary." How hurtful is it to fall in love, only to have your lover's partner, someone you've never met, decide that you're unworthy of that love? Can we really say that it's much less hurtful to have someone insist that your lover calls you "secondary?" I can't think of what it would be like for my lover's partner to demand that she love me less than she loves him.

OK, so I intended to try and ask this question a little more neutrally, but I figure I'll lay my cards on the table. Agreements? Counter-arguments? Death threats? Marriage proposals?

posted in Polyamory - 88 replies

STD Facts??

2008-06-15T16:16:43Z

I’ve recently read something about HIV and transfer by oral sex. I rarely hear anyone say they actually do anything to protect against this. There is A LOT of info on STDs out there and a lot of talk here about testing and being safe. The massive amount of info out there can be confusing…sooooo

Is there anyone here that really understands these issues and the FACTS that surround them?

Is HIV or other STDs as easily spread with unprotected oral sex vs. fluid-bonding?

What about the real chance of contracting each STD through unprotected sex or protected sex?

Let’s hear some real facts or links to specific sites that give vetted medical info, not just someone’s opinion…this would really be beneficial to me and others I know.

THANKS in advance

posted in Polyamory - 33 replies

The intellectual vs. emotional

2008-06-14T02:43:16Z

I'm having a rough time reconciling my intellectual with my emotional responses to having a polyamorous relationship. We've been together for 6 months and everything is beyond wonderful in every sense. We began discussing having a poly or open relationship from the very start as it's something we've both wanted before we met each other. We have discussed everything we could possibly think of in terms of benefits, boundaries, possible complications, etc. in an attempt to prepare ourselves for this new dynamic. We have an incredibly strong bond-- very committed and also very magical. I have absolutely no *rational* fears about us at all. However, now that he's forayed into his first lover outside of us I'm finding that I have a lot of anxiety about it.

I know that a large part of it has to do with the fact that when we first discussed all of this we decided we wanted our first lover to be someone we could share. However, since that time we've both agreed to be open to the possibility of either of us having separate lovers. Again, we tried to discuss everything we could think of in advance...but of course at that point it was all talk so there was no real way to know how either of us would respond in reality.

I've completely talked myself out of any of the fears that I initially experienced when he told me about his first foray, but for some reason I still have this knot in my belly and I'm just not sure how to get my intellectual understanding to calm my emotional reactions down.

For years now I've thought that poly was the way to go but had never had the opportunity to put it into practice. Now that I'm actually able to explore this I'm not feeling as okay with it as I'd hoped.

any helpful suggestions?

-K

posted in Polyamory - 19 replies

The Keys to Success!

2008-06-13T02:52:35Z

For those of you involved in relationships that you would call "successful" what would you say were the Keys to your Success? What are the things that have made it all work out for you?

Might be one thing or three or whatever. Maybe it was defining moment in yourself, or a realization. Maybe it was starting your own silverware company.

Whatever it was, please share!

posted in Polyamory - 38 replies

Interview with Author Jenny Block on Open Marriage / Polyamory

2008-06-12T07:00:16Z

Great interview with Jenny Block, who just wrote a book on open marriage/polyamory. Her actual website is: http://www.jennyonthepage.com/index.html

Three's Company: Jenny Block Q&A
(5/21/2008)

A former Richmond writer lets the world in on her (not so) dirty little secret

Jenny Block is a writer who didn’t have to look far for compelling material. Her new book, Open: Love, Sex and Life in an Open Marriage, chronicles her private struggle to find common ground between conventional marriage and her own, less conventional sexual identity.

After much emotional trial and error, Block and her husband agreed on an arrangement that kept them happily married: she would have a girlfriend. Though the real-life love story sometimes reads like a blend of Desperate Housewives, Sex and the City and The L Word, it becomes clear that all the risqué drama leads to domestic bliss.

Ultimately, the 37-year-old Block’s message is that marriage comes in all sizes and shapes. Hers just happens to be a triangle.

Q: At what point did you feel the need to write about your private life?
A: About three years ago, I started searching the Internet and bookstores trying to find some information for myself. I wasn’t finding what I was looking for, but I was finding a lot of people out in the cyber-universe who were having conversations about these relationships and searching the same way I was. There were a lot of negatives out there that didn’t seem to be based in any kind of fact. So, even though it was scary, it seemed like there was something to be gained by putting a sort of girl-next-door face on something that I think is very natural and normal and average.

Q: How did your husband and then-girlfriend feel about it?
A: They were really supportive, and that’s what pushed me over the edge. My husband is very shy and quiet and totally the opposite of me, so if he was supporting me in it, then I felt really good about it.

Q: How do you handle the situation with your daughter?
A: It’s such a non-issue, because at her age [9 years old], she doesn’t really know anything about sex, and she doesn’t have any understanding that a lot of people connect marriage with sex or that there’s this rule about loving only one person. In her life, she loves lots of people. So that makes sense to her. We’ve always had people over. Whatever “best friend” I’ve had at the time has always come and hung out. She wouldn’t know the difference between any person’s roles. I liken it to other people’s private sexual lives and the way they keep it private from their children.

Q: What did your parents think?
A: My dad is a rabbi, and he’s very liberal and open. We’ve always talked about everything, but not sex in particular. But I came to my dad with this the same way I go to him for everything. I went to him on an intellectual level and said, “I need to know what you think about non-monogamous relationships.” He said, “I think they’re much more natural and more people would like to have them.” So I knew I was in a good spot. And when I told him, he couldn’t be any more unfazed. My mom’s only reaction was, “Just make sure you’re all talking and communicating and that everyone is happy and on the same page.”

Q: What’s the trickiest part of focusing on two people in a relationship?
A: I guess it’s the same as any kind of juggling — two jobs, two things to write, two children. In some ways I feel like I’m a better partner because I’m a hypersensitive partner. I cannot be careless with either of them. There’s too much at stake. I thought one partner was more difficult. This just seems to make sense to me. I understand that not everybody gets that, and I appreciate that. I don’t think this is for everyone, and I’m not prescribing it for other people. Yes, it’s hard. Is it any harder than a monogamous relationship? I think all relationships between human beings are tough.

Q: Since you’ve decided to be exclusive with your girlfriend and your husband, do you think the term “open marriage” still applies?
A: I wish I knew. The language is one of the biggest problems. When I first started talking about this open marriage, people were like, “Oh, you’re swingers? You go to sex parties?” And I was like, “Whoa, whoa, whoa … OK, we are obviously not down with the lingo.” We’re not saying what we mean to be saying. Is it still appropriate? I don’t know. I use it for lack of a better word.

There was a book in the ’70s, called Open Marriage, by a couple, the O’Neills. Two pages in that book talk about sex. What they were [mostly] talking about was maintaining your individuality, being open and honest with each other. So I’d like to think we’re part of that “open marriage” movement.

There are people who have all these interesting permutations of who they have romantic love relationships with, who they have family partnering relationships with and who they have sexual relationships with … It’s people trying to figure out something that people have been trying to figure out since the dawn of time, which is how to live and be happy and navigate relationships and sex and love — all the hardest and best parts of life.

Q: Do you identify with the gay community?
A: One hundred percent. I hate all the boxes and identifying, but if you ask me, I say I’m bisexual. I wrote the book in a gay coffee shop. You know, the gay community figured this stuff out a long time ago. In some ways because gays and lesbians can’t get married, that community has made up their own rules. If you’re not “allowed” to do traditional marriage, then “What is this relationship? How do we define it? What does this mean?”

Q: Your arrangement seems to scare some people. What do you think they’re afraid of?
A: I think they’re afraid of a couple things. Remember when you were in elementary school and you would chew a piece of gum in class? That one girl who always sat in the front row would catch you, and she’d tell on you. I remember thinking, “Why do you have to tell on me? I wasn’t bothering you. I wasn’t bothering anybody.” It’s almost like, “If I have to follow the rules and be miserable, then so do you.” And that makes me really sad. I think some people are so indoctrinated with their religion or morality or whatever [that] if they let go of that for one split second, their entire universe would come tumbling down. I mean, imagine if I’m on to something. Imagine if I’m “right.” What would that mean? —Pete Humes

http://www.richmondmagazine.com/ME2/dirmod.asp?sid=&nm=&type=news&mod=News&mid=9A02E3B96F2A415ABC72CB5F516B4C10&tier=3&nid=BEBEC0BA54214E1DA53ED1FA4D959622

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

The BDSM Stories Tribe needs you

2008-06-12T00:50:24Z

We need your filthy minds in the BDSM Stories Tribe:

http://tribes.tribe.net/bdsmstories

Share your fantasies. Whether they've actually happened or not, we want to read them. Don't we? Yes, we do.

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

Birthday note for my wife

2008-06-11T15:36:35Z

This is for you E, thank you for being the strong and loving person that you are.

I can never forget when I first laid eyes on you. Yes, it was a "guy" type of reaction (schwng!) because there was no way that someone like you would ever give someone like me the time of day. One look at you and my thought was "yea in my dreams." Your beauty then as it does now still takes my breath away. I get butterflies when I see you in the morning getting ready, at night when you prepare for bed, every day and every night. My feeling of love for you will never change no matter where I'm at, whether it be this life or another. Your physical presence is not what makes you a beautiful woman to me. Your caring, loving, and spirit is what makes you attractive. You're a beautiful soul that radiates beauty from every molecule of your being. I feel privileged that you have allowed me to part of your life, and hope that this adventure will never end once our physical shells have left us. For whatever reason we found each other and are now connected for all time. Our coming together when we were both searching was not an accident, it was a blessing that we were given (It was meant to be). I have no idea what tomorrow will bring, or the day after that one, or the life after the one we have now. I do know that it will all be with you.

Happy Birthday. My love will always be with you.

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

How did/do you know you are "Poly?"

2008-06-10T23:42:29Z

How did/do you know you are "Poly?" I mean, have you always made connections easily? Been ok w/casual connection, had multiple lovers at once etc?

I’ve been trying on the poly lifestyle for the past couple of years (“flirting” might actually be a more accurate term) with very little success. Mostly it amounts to me sitting home while my poly lover basks in the joy of NRE, me feeling like a needy idiot because I’m feeling shut-out and wanting reassurance.

I remember asking a friend once how he knew he was gay and he said it was simple... it was based on who he fantasized about as a young boy. He got crushes on men. That made a lot of sense.

While I see the benefits of Poly for me... it's honestly just never something I've leaned towards my entire life. When I've fallen into multi-ple lover situations I've liked it very much. But they have been rare. Generally, I've ALWAYS fell into exclusive connection with those I connected with. But that may be just because its so hard for me to make connection and once I've got one I hold on for dear life... or it is because I like the safety of certainty?

I've no idea... How did you know?

posted in Polyamory - 57 replies

It's Not an Enlightenment Contest

2008-06-09T00:23:53Z

Some of the recent threads ("The hierarchy" and "Relationship Rules" come to mind), combined with some recent personal experience and feedback, leave me a wee bit concerned that the collective wisdom of the tribe is, on balance, a little tough on the newer folks.

Much of the collective wisdom lately seems to boil down to:

"Challenged by something in your poly relationship? It's probably you. Go get more enlightened. Don't adopt rules, codes of conduct, agreed-upon-hierarchies, or any of that other crap to address your issues because they're just silly and useless coping mechanisms for your insecurities."

Obviously this is not a single voice. Obviously there are those who think (or speak) no sentiment like this. Perhaps my interpretation of the "collective" voice is too harsh. But I'm seeing it and I thought I'd say something.

So here's my deal...

One of the most helpful pieces of advice I have ever heard regarding poly (heard for the first time on this very tribe) and that I'd like to pass along to any new folks is this:

"It's Not an Enlightenment Contest"

Let me repeat that because I haven't seen it said here for a long time...

"It's Not an Enlightenment Contest"

You are who you are. You need what you need.

Yes, you can dig around in your psyche to try to address wants and needs driven by fear, insecurity, childhood trauma, or the bad sushi from last night's dinner. And, yes, there are people here who have done *years* of that work, addressing each and every poly-challenged place within themselves and becoming little sovereign nations of imperturbability.

But I'm not sure that's what the new-to-poly folks need to hear.

I mean, I think it's helpful to hear in a way. LIke it's totally rockin when I watch Bruce Lee do a hand-over-hand descent down a rope, pull a cobra out of bag with his bare hands, and then take out a room full of bad guys. That's awesome. Makes me want to go learn martial arts.

But it wouldn't be very helpful to show up for my first day of Kung Fu class, be handed a bag, a cobra, a rope, and shown to a room full of bad guys with only one instruction: "having true skill is having no skill." WTF?!

What I want to say to the newer folks is this:

Absolutely, if it helps, form agreements with your partners. Adopt rules. Design hierarchies. Do *whatever* it takes for EVERYBODY involved to feel comfortable and confident in ALL of the relationships you're having. (Pay particular attention to the words "everybody" and "all" in that previous sentence.) If it means you and your "primary" agree to always wear Richard-Nixon masks when out on first dates with new partners, knock yourselves out. Just be sure to find a "secondary" who doesn't have a latex allergy.

And realize that while you're forming these agreement, determining these rules, and adopting these hierarchies, that they may be fleeting. But also realize that they may NOT. Just watch the underlying motives that make you feel the need to do these things and then ask a simple question: do I want that motive within me, as part of me? If no, go do some personal work (or just let years of poly burn it out of you). If yes, poly just showed you something damn important about who you are. (Perhaps, for example, that you are a person with a creepy fetish for dead Republican presidents. But I digress...)

Poly is not an enlightenment contest. It's not about who can be the first person to arrive at some mythical "I have no rules, I embrace no hierarchies, nothing perturbs me" finish line.

Have some people grown beyond rules? Yes.

Have some grown beyond hierarchies (or simply never found them useful in the first place)? Yes.

But that may very well NOT be you. Might NEVER be you. Build relationships for you. Now.

Poly (like any other relationship) is about working, actively, with your partners and designing relationships that suit everybody involved. Relationships tailored to the personal wants, needs and idiosyncrasies of the individual participants. Relationships that ACCEPT who you are in THIS moment. And, perhaps most importantly, relationships that recognize your potential and provide a GENTLE environment for whatever growth you desire.

In short:

Don't worry if you need a ladder, are scared of snakes, or prefer to take a gun to a Kung Fu fight. No problem. Just be sure your partners...

* Are good with ladders. (Perhaps a fireman would work.)
* That they hate snakes. (The crazy, dead, Australian guy is definitely out.)
* And that they're card carrying members of the NRA. (Look for the Richard Nixon mask-wearers, lots of overlap with that demographic.)

- grey

P.S. And let me add that, when it comes to being a tad unhelpful with the new folks, I'm as guilty as anybody. After nearly 3 years of constant activity in these forums, I got so bored with seeing the same old questions over and over that I just started referring people, relentlessly, to old threads.

And, in retrospect, I realize that in in some of my posts from yesteryear, I sometimes took a little too much pleasure in advertising (implicitly) the fact that I no longer suffered some of the issues common to folks new to the game.

Sorry about that.

Just goes to show that becoming "Master of the Rope and Cobra" is making you master of only two things: ropes and cobras. "Master of Compassion and Humility" is a whole separate apprenticeship.

posted in Polyamory - 107 replies

I am so confused...

2008-06-07T15:42:51Z

I have to ask those of you out there that are married and were monogamous before being poly a question. If things with your spouse got heated and were not going well, how did you treat your other relationship that you were in? At what level does a person communicate with their spouses secondary about things? My husband and I recently separated, and he continues to see his secondary/girlfriend/possible replacement to me. I am so confused as to how to treat the situation. It is difficult to know boundaries. I do not think that he is being honest to her about the situation, but at some level I know that she undestands that things between the two of us are not quite right. He tells me that he told her that we are separated. I did not have a chance to ask her about it. He tells me that I cannot talk to her and that I should never go over to her house again, as I did to try to tell her that I was not comfortable with him being at her place after we argued. I do not think that this is a healthy poly situation, and see that this is how things start to get ugly and complicated. I just don't know how much I should try to talk to her, adn what my feelings are about her in all of this. I don't feel that I have much respect for her if she is with my husband and knows that the shit has hit the fan. But again, I am not experienced with all of this, as some of you might be. Any thoughts to share?

posted in Polyamory - 16 replies

Three new poly books

2008-06-06T22:10:58Z

I've written reviews of the three new (and very different) polyamory books that have just come out:
http://polyinthemedia.blogspot.com/2008/06/three-new-poly-books.html

They are
*The Polyamory Handbook* by Peter J. Bensen
*Open* by Jenny Block
*Opening* Up by Tristan Taormino

Enjoy.

Alan M.

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

(Poly) LOVE IS......

2008-06-06T03:10:08Z

(Poly) LOVE IS......

stopping by his house to walk and feed the dogs so that he
can have an un-interupted week-end retreat with his new girlfriend.

(which I just did before using his internet connection).

Instructions for this thread(in case it is not obvious):

Insert your cute/romantic/sweet/annoying/snarky etc.open relationship
oriented statement here...
ala that 70s" Love is..... " thing

posted in Polyamory - 142 replies

Terminology

2008-06-06T01:35:38Z

There are some very active threads running that discuss people's comfort, or lack thereof, with descriptive labels being applied to the relationships they are in. If you aren't using the primary/secondary/tertiary model, what language feels good to you in that context? We've used paramour, consort, other significant other and a few other ideas over the years. Share what you enjoy!

posted in Polyamory - 17 replies

Flyover Poly -- New Tribe!!

2008-06-05T22:05:46Z

No, we don't live in New York. Or Seattle. Or San Francisco. A Tribe for those of us who are polyamorous, poly friendly, and/or poly curious and live in the "waste" known as flyover space. (Of course..... everyone is welcome though!!)

http://tribes.tribe.net/flyoverpoly

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

At last!

2008-06-04T20:19:11Z

Over the past few years I have been involved with someone openly poly only to find he was less then honest with me. (Lots of inconsistancs, no emotional support, inconsideration about my needs/desires) So I was left with mixed feelings about being poly...loved the idea of being open and supportive with one another and eachother's additional partners...but not the lies.

I met a couple recently that are very much in love, completely open, and poly! We've hit it off and I'm happy to say that I've found myself rethinking a Poly lifestyle. I'm not letting one lying guy taint my view of something that I believe can be a beautiful thing!

*jenn*

posted in Polyamory - 12 replies

Do you look or do you find?

2008-06-03T23:41:11Z

I'm sure that everyone here came to polyamory in different ways, and that the different relationships represented are a natural outgrowth of each person's style. I'm curious how you developed your polyamorous "style" and how that affects the way you look for/find love.

When did you realize that exclusive relationships were not for you? Did you start out monogamous and develop an open relationship? How did you come to the conclusion that poly was a lifestyle choice you wanted to make?

If you are new to polyamory, what questions/reservations/positive experiences have you encountered?

If you are in a relationship now, do you actively date/look for partners, or do you wait for relationships to find you? How do you approach the topic of polyamory with potential partners who may never have heard of it, or do you stick to partners who are also polyamorous?

If you are single, do you openly acknowledge that you are poly, or do you wait until an interaction becomes potentially serious to broach the topic? How has this worked for you? Do you date around, or do you wait for something to hit you?

posted in Polyamory - 10 replies

Relationship Rules

2008-06-03T23:34:02Z

In one of Jenni’s posts she listed rules to her poly relationship, they were; 1. no extramarital children, 2. our marriage comes first 3. we need to communicate openly and honestly about our feelings, whereabouts, plans, and be sensitive to one another's needs. 4. (and this one came after we had our first experience through my first boyfriend), we need to not see the other person if we are having complications or fights..

In the creation of my current relationship with my beautiful Glenda we agreed to basically no special rules/boundaries. This has really simplified our relationship to one of accepting what the other has to offer, who they are now and being joyful for the time spent together.

Now when I say no rules I’m talking about special boundaries beyond what we considered automatic relationship stuff like: being kind, supportive, respectful, safe sex practices with all partners…stuff like that.

What are your special/unique rules that you have in your relationships?

posted in Polyamory - 25 replies

talking about HPV

2008-05-31T22:30:44Z

so, if you've had an abnormal pap and been told you have HPV, what do you tell your partners? I asked my doctor this question and she actually told me she wasn't sure what to say.... that it is so ubiquitous, and since condoms don't fully protect against it, you may just give it to a guy (who probably already has it) who may then pass it on to a woman (who probably already has it) and in the mean time, they will just freak out about it. When, statistically speaking, it isn't something to freak about. Basically, if you are sexually active with anyone who has ever had any previous sexual contact at all, you are likely to be exposed to it, so you might as well just not worry about it and, of course, be SURE to get your pap smears regularly. That's essentially what she told me.

I went ahead and told my current partner anyway, (weeks before we ever got close to being intimate), because it felt like the right thing to do. Everything seemed fine with this for awhile. His wife has since more clearly absorbed the fact that this could potentially lead to cancer (never mind how small the chances actually are), and is now completely freaking out about it. Freaking out to the extent that I may never be able to see him again and it is causing a rift in their relationship.

It's really making me wonder what the right thing is to say. I am so upset and feel so frustrated that trying to do the right thing has led to so much pain and confusion and upset. I am at a loss.

I'm curious to hear how other people handle this issue.

posted in Polyamory - 37 replies

temporary monogamy?

2008-05-31T20:33:01Z

I've never really been monogamous in my life, but am currently in a relationship with a monogamous person...

I left two beautiful lovers behind in London, and another sometimes-lover nearby, and several other loves and lovers around the world who I maybe have rare contact with but still those connections are so precious.... I came back to NZ for what was supposed to be a few months. Then I reconnected (sexually for the 1st time..) with the love of my life and realised that we absolutely need to be together; we are the same in so many ways, we've been professing our love for over eight years now ... expect that he cannot understand why I still want to be with other people; how I could kiss someone else the way I kiss him and still expect him to believe I love him more than anything, more than I could ever love anyone else.
He says he'll never stop me being with anyone else; he wants me to be happy before anything else. But I know that my other relationships are painful for him, and I don't want to continue them unless he can be happy with that....

So for now I've sent painful emails to my pretty boy and gorgeous girl in London; things are on pause.....

I honestly believed I was committed to polyamory for life, and I still do; I still am. Just that things are on pause right now. But is it possible that someone who can only believe in love if it's mongamous can change? I know that a lot of poly people with a primary relationship start off monogamously....

rah. any insights at all will be appreciated....

posted in Polyamory - 18 replies

quick question just for info

2008-05-31T19:49:56Z

a journalist recently suggested that many of the poly folk she's interviewing seem to be in "analytical careers like some form of counseling or computers"

I find being in NYC that I have many creatively-inclined poly friends as well

what do you do for a living?

posted in Polyamory - 44 replies

Asking for advice on meeting people

2008-05-29T16:44:16Z

Recently my primary relationship ended - long story, so at the moment there is one person that I date. I see him about once a week, and that seems to be were he is comfortable. He is quite a bit younger than I, and in no hurry to settle down in any aspect of his life.

The problem is that I am lonely a lot of the time. I am ready to settle down, have kids (the clock is ticking), and otherwise be in a 'marriage' type arrangement - to one or more people. I had that with the relationship that just ended, but there were enough other problems that I am better off now. So... How and where do I meet people. I never mind having new friends, but tend to be a bit of an introvert - and I don't have a lot of social contacts either.

I'm pagan, and the one local group I tried, I ended up leaving because of the politics and petty power struggles. I'm in Tacoma WA, not a big city, and neither conservative nor liberal in outlook. I really can't afford to drive up to Seattle - I'm on a fixed income, and as we all know gas costs way too much. So - suggestions?

Thanks, Suzann

posted in Polyamory - 20 replies

Difference in wants/desires

2008-05-28T22:02:48Z

Hello. My husband has been in a relationship with another woman for the last three weeks. He says that he is completely in love with her, adn he says that his love for her is just as strong as it is for me. During that same discussion, I told him I was having a hard time dealing with all of this, and that I was going to need a little bit of time to adjust to it, so please be sensitive of that. In that same discussion, he told me that he loved her just as much as he did me, and that he would really like to go on vacation with her this summer alone, and that he eventually would like to be equally shared between the two of us. I guess what I thought out of all of this, and in my previous extra marital relationship, that the two of us would be the "primary couple" and that he and I would make the decisions about how things would go. I do not feel that I am getting that from him anymore., Every time that I try to talk to him about my feelings about the situation, he gets angry with me, thinks that I am being dramatic, and then later if we are in an argument, he leaves me to go and spend the night with her. This happended last night, and I am at the point, where I do not know how to handle this. Every day, I wake up with some sort of anxiety about this situaiton, especially because he told me that he sought out a relationship with her because the two of us were in the middle of an argument. My husband seems to rbe one of those guys that can talk his way out of anything, and everything, and in the process of having a conversation, I become emotional and he prays upon that. He eventually tells me that I need to go and see a counselor, as I am the one creating the problems. I am not sure, maybe I do, and i actually did speak with our marriage counselor last week and plan on doing so this week. I just don't get the same level of committment from him that I feel he wants to give anymore. I feel that our marriage is coming quickly to a close. Maybe my head is up my as for talking to him and teling him what my level of comfort is, maybe not. Any words of wisdom from my wise friends?

posted in Polyamory - 25 replies

Redbook Article: State of Our Unions

2008-05-28T17:23:35Z

Hello all,

I just noticed that Redbook did a very non bias article on various types of relationships. Number 3 was Poly.

They only covered one type of Poly, but they didn't single it out from the other groups or make it sensational. They just treated it like all the other relationship options. I thought this was great progress.

http://www.redbookmag.com/love/types-of-marriages

posted in Polyamory - 8 replies

poly-gear (clothes)

2008-05-28T16:46:44Z

Someone mentioned a polysymbol shirt they have, I want one!

I also want to have/make a "poly-bi" shirt.

I know there are sights where you can make your own shirt, but the cuts of the shirts are lame, and I actually don't really where t-shirts, so a tank top would be ideal.

Ideas?

:-)

(I'm an artist, but never got into screen printing damnit!)

posted in Polyamory - 5 replies

Handfasting?

2008-05-27T21:37:31Z

I was just wondering if anyone here knows much about getting handfasted to your s/o.

My boyfriend and I have been talking about it. We are both married to other people, and aren't looking for anything wedding like, just a commitment ceremony to celebrate what we have, as it is. I guess I just wonder what sort of vows other people have made, and maybe some ceremony advice. While neither of us are pagan, I do have some pagan leaning and a handfasting seems like the right choice for us.

posted in Polyamory - 6 replies

Branding class with Fakir Musafar

2008-05-26T20:50:02Z

Tomorrow night May 27---The Kiss of Fire, the ABC's of Branding

At the SF Citadel
1277 Mission Street
San Francisco, Ca 94103

8:00 PM to 10:30 PM
Doors open at 7:30 PM

Admission $20.00

Ever wonder what it's like to brand or be branded?

This evening, the renowned Fakir explores the history, myths and realities of this exotic practice. Fakir will demonstrate practical ways Misters and Mistresses can permanently imprint their subject by fire-direct, multiple strike and electro-cautery tools and techniques.

The class will include a vivid slide show of brands being done, results and how-to information on the making and application of "The Kiss of Fire".

Fakir will do several live brands on volunteers.

Volunteers are requested for the demos. Interested?

Contact Fakir Directly at: Fakir@fakir.org

For more information on this dynamic and world renown presenter/teacher and recent inductee into the Society of Janus Hall of Fame, visit his web site at www.fakir.org.

posted in Polyamory - 0 replies

When polyamory relationships end

2008-05-26T16:46:22Z

I have seen several posts from members of this tribe that are specific to the ending of their relationships but I don't recall seeing a discussion of how or why the ending of a poly relationship would be different from a monogamous relationship.

Breakups are never fun or easy and there are serious feelings involved that need to be processed in one way or another by all parties involved. I am curious, having gone through a fairly tough one not too long ago how other people went through theirs.

I have a feeling that breakups are as individual as the relationships that are ended but I wonder if there are characteristics of breaking up a poly relationship that are unique compared to monogamous relationships. For example, in a poly relationship special consideration must be given to the parties that are not breaking up.

I am happy to say that I am recovering nicely after over two months but I know I have a long way to go. My primary relationship is still healthy and I have been going through a great deal of personal growth and all that good stuff. My former secondary and I have not had any communication for a long time and I have no idea if we ever will have communications again. I don't know if this is normal or not but it is not by my choice in any event. I guess it could be worse. There has not been any ugly incidents or exchanges since the breakup and even though we have many friends in common our community seems to be very understanding and somewhat compassionate.

Anyway, I look forward to see if anyone on this tribe has some words of wisdom or would like to share their breakup stories.

posted in Polyamory - 16 replies

my husband's first secondary

2008-05-26T13:39:34Z

Just recently, my husband told me that he has fallen in love with someone. I am a little confused by how quickly he could possibly feel that he loves this person, as he has only known her for roughly two weeks, and only spent two days with her. I think that it is emphatuation, but that is not what I want advise on. This is the first time that this has happened. Before, he was only having sex with other people that he did not have feelings for. Lately, I feel very neglected in our relationship with one another. We had not seen each other for a week basically, as he works constantly, and then had planned a date night the other night, and he stood me up. I later found out that eveing that he had been spending time with his new "love", and it made me extremely jealous and upset. I felt really second rate. My husband is so extemely busy that he barely has time for me and his child. I am having a hard time understanding how he believes that he is going to add a girlfriend to the picture with having so little time. I guess my question is this: How do you get over that initial jealousy and not feel insecure about yourself when your husband does not make time for you and your family but makes time for other people in his life? This is all very confusing to me and sometimes I don't know whether I am being taken advantage of or not. Please help!

posted in Polyamory - 17 replies

partner with someone you don't know

2008-05-24T15:36:29Z

My partner and I help put on these incredible burlesque show/play parties where we live. They're sweet and funny and sexy and wonderful. The only time I ever have any difficulty is when he goes off and has a moment with a stranger.

I love sharing my man, I love being shared. I have great boundaries when it comes to owning my own shortcomings as far as insecurity is concerned. If I feel nervous and edgy when I find him making out with some super hot girl, I take myself off and deal with it, sometimes alone, sometimes with a close friend (luckily, there are plenty to be had at these events). Eventually, he and I get together and process really well, then snuggle and sleep or clean up.

I know its basically a self-esteem issue. I can tell the difference between paranoia and legitimate cautiousness. But where I get spun out is when I start to wonder if there really is something about whoever this woman is that wakes up a distrust in her intentions. I have been right, 9/10ths of the time, when I sense something just off about a woman. But I want so badly for him to make his own choices and mistakes without me restricting his life overly much, ya know?

Part of the problem is that I don't necessarily trust straight girls. It's awful that I'm like that. I know that I shouldn't single people out in this way, we are who we are and should have a certain amount of basic respect for each other, especially in such a delicate balance as a play party. I trust my guy, but I dont necessarily like his taste in women very often. They are sometimes manipulative and sneaky and selfish.

When he plays with someone I am friends with, I love to see it happen, even when it has nothing to do with me. I love to "hold space", even from the doorway. I take great joy in this life we've chosen together, and have no regrets. But this one thing just keeps tripping me up, and I don NOT want to restrict his activities at all. I would just write this experience off as being another one of those challenges that keeps me growing, but I'm pretty sure they'll start dating now, so it's not really over for me.

Any advice?

posted in Polyamory - 7 replies

how much time is too much?

2008-05-24T02:56:52Z

I would like everyone's input on how much time one should spend with their secondary, especially at the beginning of the relationship. I know that in monogamous relationships that people want to spend evey waking second of their time together. It is also true with any relationship. I am experiencing my husband's first secondary, and I know that he is going through that phase right now. I am not sure what is the best way to act. Like I had mentioned previously, my husband is a busy man, and has limited time already. He is spending a lot of time with his secondary right now, and I am feeling quite neglected. I am not sure if I should just go with the flow on all of this and allow him to be free, or if I should try to communicate the way this all makes me feel. I am also not sure at what point your insecurities blind you with fear and negativity. It is all very overwhelming for me at this point. I am afraid that if I limit him too much, that he will come to resent me. It seems that it is a fine line, and I am not sure how to walk it. Any advice?

posted in Polyamory - 14 replies

when you have different comfort zones

2008-05-23T22:32:31Z

My husband and I have been some flavor of open/poly for about 8 years now (together for over 16 years total). We were pretty much on the same page about what we wanted "outside" of our relationship for many years, but recently our comfort zones have shifted. We both are interested in (and have) serious on-going secondary relationship. So on that page we agree. But aside from that, I have little to no interest in casual encounters (with the very occasional exception), whereas he is still very interested in having hook-ups with people. Not random strangers, but friends with the occasional benefit, or people at play parties.

For some reason, this makes me very uncomfortable. Part of it is STD concerns (how wide are we going to make our circle?), but given his conscientiousness with asking about testing and using condoms it is not just that. I think I do not feel comfortable being that intimate with that many people, and by extension I don't feel comfortable with him being that intimate with that many people.

We end up fighting about this all the time and we seem to be at an impass. Either I have to accept feeling uncomfortable and scared, or he has to feel restricted and resents me for it. There doesn't seem to be much of a way to settle it.

Any advice?

posted in Polyamory - 16 replies

Is This Possible In True Poly?

2008-05-23T20:18:13Z

For some reason, it seems like a lot of us have had this on our minds lately (I'm abroad, I read more than I post...):

What is the difference between maintaining a primary relationship and balancing NRE and MOVING ON? It's all our wishes and fears, etc. As I've mentioned in other posts, I'm ADD and a chronic secondary and sometimes I wonder if I'm not a coward...

IF I'm a poly primary, then I risk being left by someone I love high on NRE who may or may not decide the secondary is his future primary. One reason I have this fear is that I have have dated people who are primary in other relationships/marriages who have wanted me to replace their primary and become their new primary! Yes respect for their original primary has colored my decision, but should it? Shouldn't I let the love chips fall as they may, go with my feelings, damn my lovers' primaries?

Seriously, no matter how wondrful a primary is, secondaries + NRE are potent combinations. Other than financial commitments in children, what the heck is there to keep aging primary relatioships together other than fear?

Am I insane? Yes, but what else is there in this line of thought?

Sb

posted in Polyamory - 15 replies

Help! Looking for "I don't need you" literature.

2008-05-21T13:20:06Z

I read this thing a while back, I think it was posted on here... about how the nicest thing to hear is "I don't need you" because it means you don't have to be with me, you Choose to be with me.. it was longer than that, bu t that's the gist. All I remember was at the bottom "Never" was the author. Anyone have a copy or link to this? Thanks.

posted in Polyamory - 4 replies

Is polyamory more complicated?

2008-05-20T02:13:22Z

I am still pretty new to polyamory, and I am not certain that it is a lifestyle that I would like to live the rest of my life. That is way too hard to tell at this point. I have been in monogamous relationships all of my life up until 5 months ago. My husband and I mutually decided in January to open our marriage. There are definitely benefits to being poly, and in some aspects, it seems to have strenghthened and enriched our relationship. We both feel that we don't take the other for granted as much, and appreciate our time that we have together. In other aspects, it seems like it just makes everthing a lot more complicated. I am really trying to focus on the positive aspects it brings to our marriage, however, sometimes it is really easy for me to get caught up in negative thinking about the whole situation. Any thoughts?

posted in Polyamory - 29 replies

how can you tell?

2008-05-19T03:55:51Z

if you've fallen out of love with your primary?

and when do you know if it's time for quits?

posted in Polyamory - 29 replies